World War II Scenario: anyone interested, or any suggestions/comments?

[Daniel Frappier]

Hi guys,

I have a request to be made. It would be great if somebody would do a WWII scenario that could be played multi-player in one night. Although I am still interested at single player and looking at fli files I have been playing multi every thursday night for over a month and I love it, it can't compare to single player.

Good scenarios that could be played multi in reasonnable time could become tremendously popular because multi CTP is really exciting. They are also easier to balance since you need less time to play them over and over again.

[WesW]

I have a map of Europe for civ II that you guys might want to look at. Mark posted recently that a hack will soon be out to convert civ II maps to CTP ones. I sent this map to a site which just handled maps, and the guy there said it was the best he had ever seen. Send me a request through the link here, and I'll send you a copy.

[Harlan]

Hi,
Just got off the plane today, I'm back in the good ol' USA. I should be able to start doing CTP type stuff again, soon.

Nordicus,
I really like the individual civ personality model you and Daniel are thinking about. The biggest use I see for this is for the French. They make a big turnaround with the possible Vichy administration. That could solve a big problem, cos I was never quite sure what to do about that. The Free French could be an arm of the Allies.

I'd be very happy to see the new trade goods and terrain up and operational. I know one can make replacement trade good graphics, but are you sure it is currently possible to make replacement terrain types?

About the whole world vs. Europe question. In a perfect world, a whole world map would be better, with the war raging till the 50s. But in actuality, the larger the map gets the slower the game will run, and the Europe map I envision just by itself is probably going to tax the game speed enough as it is. So I have to make compromises. The reason I'm thinking of a cutoff around 1946 is because one can only take the "whatif" so far, without inventing things out of whole cloth. I can include weapons projects that were started but didn't become important or quite operational but I don't feel comfortable going beyond that. I also worry about running out of things to research, so I'd rather not go into 1946. But that's okay, because with 20/20 hindsight, both the Germans and Allies will do better, researchwise (esp Germans since they made more mistakes). So for good players 1944 will really be like the real 1945, with new weapons and strategic options. I was thinking of ending at Jan 1946, but I could go later (end of 46?) if more what-if weapons with a historical grounding could be found. The big problem is the Allies who had very few new weapons types in the pipeline, but could have if they opted the non-nuclear route, or thought the war would last longer.

I agree in a broad way with what you say about the Germans conquering into the 1950s. One fly in the ointment though: it is now known that Stalin planned on attacking Germany in 1942. Part of the reason the Russians got so whacked in 1941 was because they were gearing up offensively, without much thought to defense. So you can't speak of a war without a Russian front with any high chance of probability. The whatifs start to pile up on each other, but it makes for insteresting speculation, anyways.

Regarding the flat map and rectangular map. My map is much wider than it is high, and as far as I understand, it is only possible now to make a perfect square map, where the height is exactly the same as the width. Technically you can make such a map in the map editor, but the AI doesn't work properly, I understand. There are similar technical problems with even making a flat map now. Also technically you can do it, but Activision folks told me it is safer to wait till its officially supported to protect against bugs and such (for instance I experimented with making one, and found AI civs could randomly start off the edges of the map!). I do have the paper map made and scanned in though, so I'll email it to you now that I'm back.

Harlan

[Harlan]

Gemini,
Do'h! I didn't know you were gonna make 100 WW2 units. Had I known that (and assuming I like what you've made), I wouldn't have bothered to make my 64 so far. I would like to see a list of the units you're making- please post that ASAP. And can you send me the ones you've done? Maybe I won't have to make some or all of the ones I'm still planning to do.

Just out of curiousity, are you going to use any of the units I've made? And if not, why not? You just enjoy making units yourself, perhaps? It rather strange, the sheer amount of WW2 units compared to other eras, if you're making that many. Too bad you didn't tell me about this before- God knows I've been blathering about my WW2 stuff on this form for quite some time now!

Daniel,
I envision this WW2 scenario as ideally played between two or three players. But not to be completed in one night- I like going into detail. It would make a good PBEM thing, I think. Or just keep going from one Thursday to the next with the same game.

One other thing: did you ever hear anything about the DVD version of this game coming out? I can't believe the Apolyton posting saying its been released.

WesW,
This idea of converting Civ2 maps to CTP is really great if it works. I got your map but haven't had a chance to look at it yet. Unfortunately, I doubt I'll use it though, even if its great. Why? Cos of the Civ2 100 by 100 maximum size limit. No matter how great your map is, I'm gonna want to blow that maximum size apart. My map is gonna be really big, but I'm hoping that since much of that is generally empty and rarely used (the Sahara and North Atlantic) it won't slow the game down too much. Sorry bout that, but keep up the good work- I look forward to checking out your newly edited files.

[Daniel Frappier]

Harlan,

No news at all, from anibody here or my local CompuStore about the DVD.

[gemini]

Hi Harlan, Most of the stuff I have made is not the same as the stuff you have made. Also I have made a few animated sprites. Some I know you would be intrested in. Here is a list of the ones made so far.
Every thing animated has either a
attack(a) movement (m) death (d)
behind it.
B17 a m
wildcat animated a m
p51 animated a m
thunderbolt a m
spitfire a m
stuka a m
biplane a m
nuclear bomb a
aircraft carrier d
I also have a whole bunch of army men made with only one facing though.

And a whole bunch of tanks made. For the following countries germany, american, british, russian, and working on some italian tanks now. All have five facings.

Your sprites are good but not animated, that is why I have made a few animated but for lack of resources(3d models) I will have to settle with unanimated sprites for some units.

I have been purposely trying to avoid making the same stuff as you because I was planing to use some of your units. If that is okay.

All of the animated units have been properly aligned but some of the tanks and men have not been tested yet but have been compiled. Let me know if you would like to see all or just the animated ones and I will e-mail. I have no tga files for these yet.

Talk to you later,




------------------
Gemini

[Harlan]

Gemini,

Please send what you've got of the units you've got, animated or no. I'm just curious to see what they look like, finished or not.

I'm not quite sure about mixing animated and non-animated units- it may be wierd to have some units that can do all kinds of things and others that can't do any. But its better to have the option, so that people can turn it on or off, I suppose.

Here's the stuff I'm still needing:

**= Axis only, ## Allies only, @@ Russians only

Alpine Troops
Border Defense
General
## Marines
Paratroopers
Partisans
** Spy
** Stormtroopers
## American Infantry
## British Infantry
** German Infantry
@@ USSR Infantry
Infantry
Anti Tank Infantry

** P-1101 Jet Fighter
** Arado 234 Jet Bomber
** He-177 Bomber
## Meteor Jet Fighter
## Lancaster Bomber
## B-29 Superfortress
@@ Pe-8 Bomber
@@ Tu-2 Bomber

Please send me your complete list of units made and planned to be made. Is it possible you could do/ have done any of the above? As I said somewhere else, soon I will be receiving in the mail a copy of the game Soldiers at War (courtesy of Jim Hair) that should allow five facing graphics for many of the ground units. Would you be interested in helping me out on making some of those? It only has a few types that can be used relatively unchanged (being mostly a US vs Germany game) but the rest can be extrapolated with some editing, I think.

And I'm really hoping you've done/ can do some of the remaining bombers, as I have no raw material to work from on those yet (except for the P1101).

Harlan

PS- send stuff to my harlant@earthlink.net address.

[WesW]

Nordicus, have you looked at making that stockade icon I asked about? I have the rest of the mod ready to send in, and this is the only glitch in it that I can't fix. If you could just take the existing city wall icon, and change the color of it to a wood-brown, that would be fine. Of course, I would also need to know how to implement it.

[WesW]

Harlan, if I could make a request...You stated that you are enlarging the graphics 25% for your mod. I think I would rather you left them at the original size. This would put them at about the same size as the standard units. I play at the 800x600 screen size, and the units seem a little fuzzy, and a little over-sized when viewed at that setting. This would make for less work for you, and produce better-looking units, too, imo.

I wish Paul's graphics units for CD's mod had been smaller. They look fine at 1064x724, but show up really fuzzy at the 800x600 setting.

[Nordicus]

WesW:
I just posted in the other section regarding this. Oh, that was quick--mail for me, from you.
Okay, just got your two files and will go over them in a little bit.
Thanks for that and for the blinding speed!
Talk to you later...


N.

[Nordicus]

Gemini:
Hey! Look at all those yummy units! Man, saves me a bunch of work. I was wondering about the 'people' units, 'army men' types...there's only one facing for them? What I had planned was using screen shots (HyperSnapDX) of some with all five facings (example: in making the SS unit, a modern/German spy unit, I'd just touch up the existing CTP Spy unit--same for a Russian spy type, KGB or something--and for the Stormtrooper: I was going to change the existing 'Facist' unit, as well as give him slaver qualities; and I thought that the 'Marine' unit could be slightly altered for an Allied Infantry unit). I thought that it would save a lot of work and time using some of the orginal units but altering them--as well, having all 5 facings, correct angles, etc., would be very handy. If this sounds reasonable to you, I could send you them, or perhaps Harlan's offer (i.e. the graphics from 'Soldiers at War' from Jim Hair) would be better. I'm just trying to think of what would save the most time and energy, and have units that are roughly similar in concept, having 5 facings, etc.

I'll echo Harlan's list of required units and add (including those mentioned above):

(**--Axis; ##--Allied; @@--Russian)

** SS
@@ KGB (if it's for a Europe WWII one or not)
Mine (Sea)
Land Mine (AP)
Land Mine (Antitank)
## Partisan (French underground)

(Harlan mentioned the Stormtrooper already. What this game really, badly, needs is an Engineer unit--modern Settler--although I'm unsure whether this is an option for our scenario...lemme know what ya think.)

It seems as though you, Harlan, and I all want the the same thing: a functional and good-looking WWII Scenario before the next millenium comes. There's no reason why we all can't work on a Europe Scenario first, then a Scenario encompassing all theatres of operations, is there? Anyway, lemme know whatcha think. Meanwhile, I'll get started on that damned AIP business.
Later.

N.

[Nordicus]

Harlan:
Howdy!
I got your maps and liked what I saw (although they're pretty useless right now: need a new printer at the end of the month, and it seems as though I can't splice them into one image--apparently, 128 mb of RAM is insufficient to do so). Yes, I can handle very large files. Oh, BTW, how coincidental that you have a "dunes" terrain, for I've made a third desert terrain called (whatta coinkydink) 'Dunes,' the concept of which is an actual arid wasteland tile (no goods, gold or food) in addition to other desert tiles; it's not totally uncrossable, but it's as hard to get across it as a mountian (400).
Speaking of which, everything's done now, but I'm having trouble implimenting the new terrains. It seems I've not finished ALL of text files as I thought (already altered terrains, terrainicon, goods, goodsicon, goodsID, gl_str, Const, gw, concept, concepticon...), but the real problem is with my water terrains. I made three: all polar ocean types (reduced mobility, inaccessible for some early ships); deepwater_ice, water_ice (shallow polar ocean), and ice_beach (polar coast). But it appears that I may have to scrap them, because of all the confusion they're causing--too bad, I really felt that warm ocean water surrounding glacial islands was moronic. Oh well.

Anyway, I don't have a 'bauxite' good; here are the mineral goods I've included:

gold
silver
iron ore
coal
copper
uranium

They're not all that pretty to look at (especially the iron ore...*shudder*), but hey, they're minerals, not ancient Chinese ceramics.
I have also a couple gem goods, food goods, etc. Oh--I was way ahead of ya: I dramatically increased the value of oil (as well as diamonds) and added it to the tundra terrain as good2, to make northern terrain areas more attractive in general.
What else...yeah, farted around with dip_str to increase the AI's vocabulary and changed some of its monotonous phrases.

And now I'm about to look over some AIP and aidata stuff, as well as design a stockade icon for WesW's mod, right after I try to get those f**king terrains working.
What are you up to?

Gotta go. Later.

N.

[Nordicus]

Harlan:
(Post Script: Yeah, if Gemini sends you any previews of those units, I'd really like a peek as well, if Gemini doesn't mind. And if you can send a whole map, that'd be super. Thanks.)

[WesW]

Nordicus, did you increase the numbers at the top of the appropriate text files? I always forget that.

Also, I would be interested in having a set of files which place the oil good in the tundra type for my mod, as well.

I've contacted Dutchcheese about his alterations to the aidata files. What I learn from him may be helpful with your mod as far as designing agressive, warlike behavior patterns.

[Harlan]

Nordicus,
Regarding unit graphics. I just saw Gemini's units, and while good looking, most are "people" units that unfortunately are not good enough if we want 5 facing units. I'm sure Gemini was doing the best he could with the resources available, but since I know of this "Soldiers at War" lead, I think we should take advantage of that, and make all the "people" units five facing as well.

I have only been sent a sample graphic from the Soldiers at War game, but Jim H. says he will snail mail me the entire game soon. I'll send you and Gemini the sample graphic I got already though, to see what I mean. I could hardly ask for something more perfect to make units from- the facings, size, detail, etc is just right for CTP. If we pool our resources, we could divide tasks and finish making these in a short time. I think this is much better than touching up the existing CTP people units, cos I've always had a few issues with those, like the inhumanly large muscles that would be very difficult to tone down.

As for the extra units you mentioned, SS should be same as Stormtroopers, no? and Partisans is already on my list. KGB I would be game for adding, though you might want to call it NKVD or Commisar. Mines I don't think will really work in CTP. They almost put mines in the game (notice the cut Minesweeper/Engineer unit) but they couldn't get it to work in time I guess. I agree a modern Settler type unit would be a good thing for CTP in general, but for WW2, I don't envision a need. I don't want a unit that builds new cities, since that's not what the scenario is about (the AI would only misuse it), and Public Works takes care of everything else.

As far as implementing your new terrains, as I asked before, how are you going to get the game to recognize the new appearance?? Tell me if you know of some way to have the game use the graphics, cos as far as I know, we only have the ability to edit special resource graphics so far. One wierd workaround idea: maybe make a new terrain type like Dunes be special resource that you would place in huge quantities as if it was the underlying terrain, and have the graphic completely cover the tile. Or does simply pointing to a different .tga file with the Terrainicon.txt file work??

Bauxite (ie aluminum) should be easy enough to make, probably one of the other mineral graphics could be used for it.

Harlan

PS- please send me what you've got graphics wise too- I'd like to see these various terrain things for instance.


[This message has been edited by Harlan (edited October 19, 1999).]