World War II Scenario: anyone interested, or any suggestions/comments?

[Nordicus]

Hey!
WWII Scenario!!!
If you're interested or have any ideas, comments, or suggestions, write 'em down. Thanks.

N.

[This message has been edited by Nordicus (edited October 25, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Nordicus (edited March 22, 2000).]

[Nordicus]

(See also Daniel Frappier's recent post for more details.)

[WesW]

I read in the other thread that you had made some terrain and goods icons and so-forth. I have a mod that uses a primitive form of city walls, called a stockade. I was unable to figure out how to create and install a separate terrain icon for the stockade, though. If you could create something to use to differentiate the stockade icon from the city wall icon, and perhaps tell me how to change the files in order to implement it, I would be very grateful.
Also, you stated you would like to have unique attitudes for the different sides in the WWII. Are you speaking from experience with CTP, or Civ II? From what I have learned working with the aidata in CTP, doing this would be much different than with Civ II. Then again, I don't know anything about the CTP programming language other than what I picked up from CD's comments.

Again, if you could help me with the sockade icon, I would be very grateful.

Wes Whitaker

[Harlan]

Hi Nordicus,

You must be kind of new to this Creation forum, cos I've posted a number of times already about my planned WW2 Europe scenario. I think I was already talking about my plans for making it before CTP even came out. Unfortunately, the patches have come so slowly that there isn't much I can do yet. The way things are going, I'm beginning to wonder if making good scenarios will EVER be possible with CTP. I can't even make my map yet cos maps have to be a perfect square and the one I want is rectangular (not to mention lack of flat map support).

But anyways, a guy can dream. Here again, is the gist. The proposed scenario would cover a very large area, including all of North Africa, North Pacific (including a bit of US East Coast, Middle East, north enough to include the Land Lease route to Russia, and far into Russia (about to Novosibirisk). Civs would be between 10 to 15, depending on how much extra ones slow the game down. Units would be about 90 different types. For the units, I've been focusing alot on "what if" type units, to allow for a lot more player choices, not just a replay of history. They are all historically well grounded in fact though. Time period would be from about May 1940 to 1946.

I agree things like borders would be great, but at this point I'd be happy just to have some basic scenario functionality. Things like civilization exclusive units, technologies that couldn't be traded, objective point victory system, ability to set the calendar by month instead of year, long promised 16 player support for scenarios, etc etc... Is Activision even working on fixing these kinds of things?? I'm getting pretty fed up waiting, but Civ3 is a long ways off and I'm bored with Civ2 already, so what else can a scenario maker do but put up with Activision's slowness? If all else fails and Activision completely drops the ball, I figure these graphics I've made can more or less work for Civ3, since Firaxis is using the SMAC engine to make that one so the size and tile directions will no doubt be very close.

I am much more into making the graphics and the map, and less into text file editing these days. The AI files in particular frighten me in their complexity and I don't have a clue about SLIC editing. So help would be greatly appreciated.

Nordicus, what are your plans? If you're making graphics, I highly recommend a number of sources for "raw material". Most of my WW2 units came from The Operational Art of War I or the East Front and West Front games. TOAW II covers post-WW2 until now, so between these four things you have just about all the 20th century raw graphics you'd need except for older stuff like WWI. I have all of that and can pass stuff on to interested graphics makers. All these games use the same format.

The biggest problem is that the graphics are too small in my opinion- I have to enlarge them 25% usually, which then means a lot of tweaking to make them look good again. Plus, for the five angles, one of the angles is off by about 15 degrees. So that needs to be rotated and then tweaked alot to fit the CTP format. Also, you're on your own with shadows. But its much better doing that than starting from nothing.

These games are also mostly focused on land combat, and frequently lack much good naval and air graphics (especially high altitude bombers). So for naval stuff I generally used the Viewpoint website, and for air to plug the holes these games lack I've been trying to get Microsoft Flight Simulator graphics (though I don't actually have them in hand yet). Jim Hair has a game called Soldiers at War that appears to have great graphics to make WW2 era soldier units. Pacific War stuff may be much hard to get, though TOAW may have some of that.

For older graphics, Jim Hair has also passed on to me all the Age of Empires graphics, converted into a usable format. So no need to work from screenshots there. They're generally very easy to convert to CTP format, but I haven't gotten around to doing more than a few- perhaps someone would like to take on this conversion to allow more ancient units? I can email the files.

I'm imagining that the Age of Kings graphics will be pilferable before too long, so that generally fills most graphics needs up to the year 1500 or so. Between 1500 and WW2 it still seems hard to find good raw material for that.

I'll be back to the US in a week or so and will be able to start in again on CTP stuff before too long.

[Nordicus]

Wes W:
Yes, I've seen (and have) your mod with the stockade feature in it (can't recall what it was called, having downloaded so many, but I do remember it). I think I might be able to help--it's not the terrain or terrainicon files that you need to change for your stockade; it's the improve and improveicon ones, as well as the gl_str of course. I haven't had time to properly test my terrain or goods graphics, and I've never done an improvement yet..although I believe it could be done in the same sort of way.

Yeah, I'd really like to have customized personality types, for esp. a WWII scenario as well as a more extensive war scenario. What sort of experience do you have with aidata? Any success in altering AI personalities? Last night I spent many hours going trough the diplomacy files and had slight success with making it so AI civs aren't so friggin angry at the human player when he/she has done nothing to justify this 'reaction' (diplomacy, diplomacy_accepted, diplomacy_begin, diplomacy_incoming, diplomacy_outgoing, diplomacy_rejected), but I only touched on a few things. I haven't gotten to the personality files yet, so I was unable to determine how to make allied AI civs to refrain from trespassing or how to make them fight a common enemy, rather than attacking only when the enemy is standing right in front of them.
(I've played Civ on SNES and CivII on my Playstation, so CTP is my first PC experience with the Civ series.)
So, I think I could help you out. Oh, BTW, I was stumped by the meaning of the numbers (and too hestitant too mess with their values) in, as an example (in dimplomacy_set_loyal):

output trustworthiness[0.0, 2.0] = 1.9
tri backstabber(trustworthiness, 0.1, 0.1)
tri average_trustiness(trustworthiness,1.0, 0.1)
tri loyal_puppy(trust.............)et cetera.

Any idea what these numbers might refer to?

N.

[Daniel Frappier]

I am at work but I will have files to send you tonight if my test to create an entirely new AI personnality works.

Reguarding you're last question, it is not very difficult:

The "personalitySciFew.fli" file is called whenever it is time for a player with the "SciFew" personality type to play, as defined in the "civilisation.txt" file. To create a new personality type "german" you would have to create a "personalitygerman.fli" file that would say what is main personality is.

Then:

"personalitySciFew" ---include--> "mainSciFew"---include-->"diplomacypeaceloyal"---include-->"diplomacy_set_loyal"

Inside diplomacy_set_loyal:

output trustworthiness[0.0, 2.0] = 1.9
tri backstabber(trustworthiness, 0.1, 0.1)
tri average_trustiness(trustworthiness, 1.0, 0.1)
tri loyal_puppy(trustworthiness, 1.9, 0.1)


You set the loyality of the player, (in this case 1.9). The closer it is to 2 the more loyal the player will be, the closer to 0 the more backstabber the player will be.

I hope it helps a bit.

[Nordicus]

Harlan:
What gave me away? Yeah I'm a newbie to the forums here, but I've been visiting the site for a while. I've seen some of your previous work while visiting a CivII site, snooping around for graphics. Speaking of maps...last night I tried something. Because I found the default map sizes inadequate (with respect to an Earth-type map: how could civs such as Japan and England, not to mention having naval bases (cities on islands) in the pacific, manage to amount to anything given the land requirements each city needs to feed itself, et cetera?), I increased the 'gigantic'/'superlarge' one to 134 X 268, the 'large' to 188 X 236, 'medium' to 86 X 172, and 'small,' 70 X 140. I tested the mega-supreme size one out first and, coupled with resetting the start date to -5000, it worked surprisingly well, taking about 50 to 60 seconds to load initially but then proceeding without any problems after that pause. I don't know if this has been tried before, I haven't tested it extensively, and I'm unsure whether or not it would be slower on slower systems, but I was quite satisfied. As for making the map rectangular, I'm uncertain...I guess one could try. Anyway, although I love the 134 X 268 map, I don't think it's necessary for the WWII scenario--maybe the 86 X 172, in order to make a semi-decent and semi-realistic representation of, say, England, Japan, but also the world. For a decent or reasonably realistic world map (having balanced proportions--the Pacific Ocean, in particular, compared to the Atlantic, etc.) it would have to be 118 X 236, giving island civs enough room to have more than four or five comfortable cities (how the heck could Japan take on the States w/ 6 cities?).
Which leads me to this question: how open are you to using a full-size world map? This would be for only a WWII (not WWI or a Cold War) scenario. Some people I know who've played war games, as whatever nation, have complained about not being able to conquer the entire world (I've experienced this too, playing PTOII...I dunno, once you get going, you don't want to stop, it's just not satisfying to pull over when you know that other areas remain unconquered). Control Freak Syndrome? Perhaps. But lemme know what you think.

Also, are you talkin' European Theater only, or all WWII Theaters? I'm thinking more of a 'Campaign' type of thing. But I don't have this carved into my forehead, so I'm open to other ideas.

I agree with the number of civs (for a Europe Scenario), types of units, esp. 'whatif' types, and giving the player(s) options (however, if the end year is only a year after the war actually ended, it doesn't leave a lot of room for 'whatif' units). Perhaps it could be 'goal'-orientated?

My plans: firstly (echoing yours), to make a WWII Scenario; secondly, to create a 20th Century War Scenario (covering both World Wars and the Cold War era). I'm interested in an ancient scenario as well, but maybe when one of the above is complete, or to help out someone else doing one (with graphics or whatever--and it sounds like when Age of Kings is in a more friendly format, this will be quite easy to do). But right now we seem to be on the same page here. A WWII Scenario is greatly needed, as well as some improvement which could make it GOOD, not average. But if average is better than nothing, I suppose I'll choose average.

Hey, any graphics you can share would be very much appreciated....Ah, shadows--honestly, I haven't put any in yet. Yes, it's hard to locate good naval unit graphics, because, I think, there just aren't that many games featuring naval combat. I can't even think of one recent (modern) one. Oh-yeah, wait: "Fighting Steel," I think it's called (read a review and it sounded pretty disappointing).
I've got a few games, but they're not in CTP format, so screenshots is about it for them.

Alrighty-then, so if you'd like to collaborate, hey, great. If so, we ought to first be in agreement on what we're doing, huh? Then we could decide who works on what, et cetera. But we really need someone who knows more about text files, aidata, than we do. Even if someone could give me a few tips, I might be able to figure out some things....
At any rate, lemme know whatcha think, and if you want to email any graphics, that'd be cool (nordicus@home.com). Until then, enjoy your Borneo Expedition! (I expect that the weather's better than over (&up) here in Edmonton!) (;b)


N.

[Nordicus]

Daniel...hello.
Thanks a lot for that! It answered a number (so to speak) of questions I had regarding those insipid little numbers!
Yeah, I did find a few graphics, and I downloaded a few more, but I'm uncertain as to what kind you need (goods? improvement icons? terrains? wonder icons? all of the above? other...?)
I could help you out with units as well, but what seems really practical (and saves a lot of time) is for you or someone else (maybe Harlan, who said he has some and could email them) who has graphics to send them to me and take it from there, but I need to know what you had in mind for your AOK Scenario (I've never played any in that serious, thus I'm a bit clueless about the games concepts, etc.).
Anyway, thanks again, and anything else would be greatly appreciated (esp. ANYTHING in the aidata files regarding numbers: math is not one of my strong points.....art, logic, and design: okay). And if you need anything else, don't hestitate.

N.

[Daniel Frappier]

Nordicus,

I just sent to you a set of files (There are 7 files that needs to be created/modify).

In those I demonstrate how you can create a new personnality type. I created the "german" type wich I gave to the german instead of their usual "warmany". My guess is that what you want to do in you're scenario is create a "german", "english", "american", "japaneese", etc. "personnality" type as I will do for my AOK modpack but in my case it will be a Franks, English, Byzantines, Mongols, etc. types.

With all those types you would replace all the predefined types in aiploader. I only putted the minimum of work but for a real modpack you would clean aiploader a bit.

I haven't also make changes in german.aip, I just wanted to load it into memory and I have checked that it does that.

This gives you the ability to prevent Civs to research technologies and build units, improvments and wonders that don't belong to them. Even if a Civ would gain a tech through trading, it would not make any use of it because there would not be anything in it's build orders in his aip file.

We could not prevent a human player to use technology acquired through trade but I don't think that's a problem. You make rules and players respect them.

It is interesting that there is a long list of conditions you can use during the game to load different aip. As an example you could have 2 for Italy, 1 before and after the fall of Mussolini.

I have read somewere that you can't replace fli and aip files for modpack, I haven't tested that. I have made my test in the main CTP folders by renaming the standard files.

My offer is still open and starting october 30th I will have lots of time on my hands but right now my bosses are given me a maximum of work before I leave. So, so long for now.

[Harlan]

Nordicus,
I must be (relatively) brief, as I am off to the jungle again today. Thanks for your offer, I am very happy about that. If I have to do this all by myself, I fear I'll never have enough time to make it a reality.

I can't explain more right now, but if you want to see more details about my WW2 Europe scenario, just scroll back to the previous months' discussion of the Creation forum. There are several different threads that go into lots of detail, even back to April or so. My plans haven't changed much, except I added about 10 more unit types.

About the all of world map vs. Europe only, I am very pro on Europe only. Not only because I've already made the map (on paper, not within CTP yet). The fact is, these countries had their limitations. I'm glad CTP reflects this with the increasing unhappiness you get after a certain size, for each government type. In the case of the Germans and Italians, there just weren't enough resources and manpower to absorb all the lands they conquered, if they had been more successful. So you see that in their strategic plans for how they were going to use Russia once they'd conquered it all. They only had plans to control Russia up to the Urals. The Urals and beyond they were going to leave to a puppet government because it would probably take them many years just to completely subdue and handle the European part.

So when you start to talk about Nazis conquering South America, America, all of Africa and so on, there is just no way that could have happened in the 1940s regardless of how militarily successful they were, given that guerrilla movements would spout up everywhere they went. Look at Alexander- he never lost a battle, yet he had to stop his conquests and absorb them for a decade or more before continuing on (he was in the process of absorbing when he got malaria and died). Thus, when you make a world map, you only lose detail you otherwise could have had in Europe and nearby.

The one advantage is to deal with Japan and Germany at the same time, but I don't believe the AI could play the aggressor that well (just try to see if it could launch a Pearl Harbor attack by itself!), so the only way one could have that is if there was a multiplayer game going on, which doesn't happen very often.

There are many good reasons why no country has ever conquered the entire world (much less a single large continent)- its a damn difficult thing to do!

[gemini]

Hi Nordicus, Just wanted to let you know I'm in the process of making a WW2 scenario. It will involve all theatre's of operations. Not sure how long it will take to finish since it's coming along slowly. But I'm putting alot of effort into it.
Also glad to know a fellow Albertan is making scenario's I thought I was the only one. I live in Camrose.

Talk to you later

------------------
Gemini
[This message has been edited by gemini (edited October 14, 1999).]

[Nordicus]

Daniel:
I just checked my mail: thank you very much for the files and for your work. The three personality types I've been outlining are Axis: IMPERIALISTIC ("Expansionistic"), Allied: DEMOCRATIC ("Reasonable"--or "Defensive"), and Russian: SOVIET ("Socialist"--or something else). I had ideas of also doing three other ones (XENOPHOBIC--"Reclusive," which would define underdeveloped or closed-off civs, PACIFIST--"Neutral," which would define WWII civs such as Sweden, Switzerland, etc., and ERRATIC--"Unpredictable," which would combine all types of AI personalities), but I thought that three was enough for a WWII Europe Scenario. Perhaps for a more expensive scenario could feature these others....These were my initial outlines, simply because they seemed simple and easy to keep track of...but I think that maybe it might be better having a GERMAN type for the Nazis, an ITALIAN type for Facist Italy, a JAPANESE type for Imperialist Japan, as well for Allied civs and the Soviets (but only as long as these types could be MORE than CTP-type allies: REAL allies, which would actually fight an enemy rather than lazing around until an enemy trips in front of them, then they attack it...you know what I mean?). Yes, I see the bonuses in this setup. Also, I like your idea of having two for Italy: but the second would be a 'just-in-case' one, in case Mussolini was ousted--not wanting an exact replay of history but having conditions there which make it possible for him to be overthrown (ie. if the Allies invade Italy, then the nation revolts: Mussolini ousted: new aip loaded). Good idea (one could be done for every major player in the war, so that there is always a risk of revolution, even in Allied civs, if invaded, and consequently a second aip is loaded, but I don't know how much work would be involved...).

I haven't had a chance to look them over yet (I've been quite preoccupied with trying to get my 9 new terrains and 21 new trade goods up and operational--just finished all the necessary files but not all of the graphics yet). But I'll go over your files tonight when I've finished my graphics. If you're interested in any new terrains and/or trade goods (if they work, that is) for your AOK mod, then lemme know. Any additional info on AIP files would be

So, your mod seems to be set somewhere between 600 and 1400 A.D., huh?--noting your civ choices. Yeah, Oct. 30 sounds okay, but like I said, I can't devote all of my time to it, for the WWII Europe Scenario and a complete WWII Scenario would take up most of my time. Yet I don't see a problem with any graphics, units, icons, etc., you need done.
Have much to do tonight, so I'll talk to you later-----thanks again!

N.

[Nordicus]

Harlan:
I trust the jungle finds you well...
I've gone over your last post here as well as several ancient posts regarding your WWII plans. Well, I'm very pro-world; however, arguing back and forth about which sort of map would be better or more realistic would not only prove futile but also an enourmous waste of time (which could otherwise be spent on creating something). Thus, I hereby agree to do a WWII EUROPE Scenario, realizing that a more extensive one could be done after (and if you'd like to collaborate on that one as well, that'd be totally cool). I'm also of the opinion that it would be soooo nice just to get anything going that contains something even resembling a WWII scenario. I also comprehend what you're saying about if the Nazis had done things differently and conquered the world--no, I don't think they could've done it in the 1940s; perhaps into the 1950s IF England had been successfully invaded by 1942 and (a big) IF Nazi Germany had not invaded Russia at all...unsure how they would've managed getting Russia as an ally without threatening the alliance with Japan, but with Russia as an ally, it is entirely possible that all major opponents would have been eliminated. Most of of Africa might have been engulfed by 1945-46 without England around or any remaining French resistance to speak of, and no Russian Front, and an adequate Nazi navy, w/ carriers for the entire Luftwaffe, and 'whatif' forces, missles, maybe atomic weapons, could have headed for the North American east coast by 1948-49; Russia could have seized most of China and worked its way toward the Indian Ocean by 1948, maybe sooner, depending on how fast Stalin could mobilize and organize such a campaign; Japan would have been thus free to finish off any Allied forces in the West Indies, Austrailia, and begin moving towards American shores by 1945 to 1947........As for a 'new' Axis conquering the world...I don't know, but it would have taken...hmmm...at least 20 years. It's so hard to say: too many variables, what-ifs, et cetera.

But this is an old argument. I'm not one of those people who think that the Nazis could have conquered the entire world by themselves. That's absolutely absurd. All I'm saying is that (a) IF it had Russia as an ally, (b) IF Japan would've accepted that, and (c) IF England had been invaded successfully, then the combined new Axis forces might have conquered a great deal of it. Still, even if they conquered America and the rest, Hitler had always wanted the lands in Russia (he would not have settled for middle Africa (!) as Germany's "living room") and so, if he was around, I don't believe WWII would have been over for the Nazis until Russia (and its new territory) and probably Italy and the Japanese were also conquered, given their fanatical racist philosophy. They would not have been successful, unless they used nuclear weapons which no other side had (but America would have still had them, so this is also dubious). Oh, one could go in circles for hours on this subject!

At any rate, I concur: conquering the world is extremely complicated and difficult. But in the context of a game, it's damn fun to try.

So, with all that said, let's proceed with the WWII Europe Scenario. I'd rather have a full map of Russia (not for any logical reason), but if you've made one already, let's use it. On paper, you said--are you planning to make the actual one yourself? You also said you preferred a rectangular map--not sure why...because your designed map is like that? I have some knowledge of map sizes, yet I haven't tried changing map dimensions. If you want, I could try to change one. If not, what are your plans regarding what you wish to make first when you return? I'm still not clear on the options open to a player...having a scenario end in 1946 gives just a year (or two) for 'whatif' units, for whichever side. How 'dead-set' are you on this end date? Also, I don't what you mean by "flat map support."

With Daniel's help, I'm coming to some answers about the AI civs' personalities involved with this. (Please see the above, if you haven't already done so.)

But that's enough for now, have a whole crapload of stuff to do tonight.

Later.

N.

[Nordicus]

Gemini: hey there!
Yeah, nice to see another Albertan in here, esp. one creating such a beautiful thing! Camrose, eh? I've been around there, but I don't know anyone from there, so I've never stopped there--I did have a brief stay in Vegreville, though, not sure if there's any similarities....

So, you're working on one involving all theatres of operations...? Cool. And how coincidental: that's what I'm planning after Harlan and I finish the WWII Europe one. How far have you gotten so far? What kind of map are you working with? Have you any skills in text-file-writing...?
(Wink-wink-nudge-nudge.)
And are you a lone-worker or would you consider a collaboration?

Lemme know whatcha think.

If not, well, good luck, and if you need any help, just ask.

Later...

N.

[gemini]

Hi Nordicus, So far I'm working on making the units. It is a very time consuming process but I have about 50 units made so far. Another 50 are going to be made. I made about 10 with animations. (example p-51d with rotating propellors for movement animation and tracers for the attack animation). The animated units take alot of time though but I think the end result is worth it. The problem is I am having problems finding enough free 3d models on the net for the units so some units will be unanimated but all will have five facings.

It's a bigger task then I expected but it will be worth it.

I did fool around with the map sizes the other day and found about the right size I will use. But nothing made yet.

I don't know much yet about editing the text files. I am planning to do that last. But I have done it in civ 2, hopefully it will be somewhat similar.

Anyway I would be open to collaborating on my scenario but I want to finish all the units first.

If there is any unit you would like to see included in a world war 2 scenario let me know. I would list all the units that I am planning to include but I don't want to spend the time right now typing them in.

Anyway I'll talk to you later

Take it cool N.

------------------
Gemini