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**fasteddie** · August 15, 1999, 17:09

i said my piece in ctp-general. i wish everyone would just post their stuff in one topic, since everyone who matters will check each forum that has something new in it. It's really annoying since this really IS a creation topic but i saw and responded to it first in ctp-general. please ask the admin. to close all threads that are duplicates in another forum. thanks

**azov** · August 15, 1999, 17:22

I posted this MOD on Civ Nation a few minutes ago. So if you need it go here. I posted it because Mark and Ester, the makers of this mod, requested me to.

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Webmaster of Civ Nation

[This message has been edited by azov (edited August 16, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by azov (edited August 16, 1999).]

TP · August 16, 1999, 10:20

Dutcheese,

Wow this sounds lovely. I hope you appreciate constructive feedback, so here is my input on your latest version.

1. Readme file
--------------

I know by heart it is more than annoying to summarize what you have been doing. It's a dull boring exercise. Still, I would recommend you to do mirror every change you made in a readme file. Just two points here as examples why I think that's so important:

a) Just as one example: Information is missing that part of the stronger AI is driven by the fact that you are giving more gold, more public works and more advances to the AI at the start of the game (which is a fair approach, however not a really "stronger" AI but a "faster than humans" AI).

b) Also I am rather reluctant to install your MOD because I have no clue what you have been changing in the various AI files in detail and most importantly, why you did that. Now this may be due to the fact that I am a AI novice at all, still I feel sort of unsure whether installing your MOD delivers the benefits you are talking of and does not negatively change other effects. When I was still a programmer once upon a long ago, I soon began to appreciate comments in the files which colleguaes have been changing so I was able to understand the changes whenever I opened the respective files.

2. Changes in "goods.txt" and "terrain.txt"
-------------------------------------------

a) That's a very personal input, so I do not want to say that the following lines are the truth: You put more gold into the game again, something which CD has tried to get out of the game for a good reason (if you read this thread regularly, you will see that I personally made that even a bit stronger). Giving each goods 5 gold more value and also terrains more gold value means MUCH more gold at the end of a turn, thus MUCH more money to spend and MUCH more science.

b) Please consider one thing: You are selling your MOD as a modification which makes the AI stronger - adding more gold into the game does not make the AI stronger as this has nothing to do with the AI in the first place. In fact due to the more gold and more science effect, you may even end with a stronger human here.

3. Changes in "pollution.txt"
-----------------------------

a) Personal pov again: Making desaster chances lower by changing "pollution.txt" in the way you did it will decrease chance of environmental desasters to a point which I do not like that much.

b) Again, changes in "pollution.txt" do not directly interfer with the AI and thus do not automatically make the AI stronger.

c) There may be even the chance that the AI gets weaker ! By making pollution a smaller danger, it is now for humans easier to really go for the big polluting improvements increasing human production. This may lead to stronger human players.

Hope you don't perceive this input as destructive, I wanted to make my point clear without offending you. Maybe you will implement one of my thoughts in a following version. Maybe not.

All other CD 4.2 players,

Can you confirm that the AI wormhole probe does never find the opening of the wormhole so the AI never builds the end game project ? Would love to hear some comments from my fellow players here.

TP

[This message has been edited by TP (edited August 16, 1999).]

**dutcheese** · August 16, 1999, 17:13

Hi TP,

Appreciate all constructive critizim. If you really want to know some of the gory details well here they are:
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/dutcheese/moddetails.txt

The link to the text file is to prevent the thread from becoming too huge. Hope you don't mind the link.

Currently I'm a network manager for LAN and WAN computer integration and communications covering Europe, the Middle East, and Africa with eight years of computer specialist experience. I also program on my spare time using Borland's (aka Inprise) C++ Builder for Windows95/98/NT. You can download a demo VideoLibrary program I wrote from http://www.Qwerks.com/Download.asp?ProductID=1385 and you know if you really like the program I'll give anyone a free full version copy if they email me with a request.

And just to give you a teaser so you'll goto the link above here is a sample of how the AI is stronger:

Let's examine the default.aip AI concentration priorities that where changed
from and to the following: To give you a base line the max priority known is
20002000 and the least is 0.

was--double attack_troops_priority = 405000.0;
is-- double attack_troops_priority = 16000000.0;
was--double bombard_priority = 407000.0;
is-- double bombard_priority = 16000000.0;
was--double bonus_food_priority = 0.0;
is-- double bonus_food_priority = 14000000.0;
was--double cause_unhappiness_priority = 1000000.0;
is-- double cause_unhappiness_priority = 15000000.0;
was--double defend_priority = 16000000.0;
is-- double defend_priority = 457000.0;
was--double franchising_priority = 2000000.0;
is-- double franchising_priority = 15000000.0;
was--double min_attack_matching_force_ratio = 1.2;
is-- double min_attack_matching_force_ratio = 2.4;
was--double min_defense_matching_force_ratio = 1.2;
is-- double min_defense_matching_force_ratio = 1.5;
was--double nuke_city_priority = 1000000.0;
is-- double nuke_city_priority = 15000000.0;
was--double plant_nuke_priority = 1000000.0;
is-- double plant_nuke_priority = 15000000.0;
was--double sally_priority = 0.0;
is-- double sally_priority = 459000.0;
was--double seige_priority = 405000.0;
is-- double seige_priority = 16000000.0;
was--double steal_technology_priority = 1000000.0;
is-- double steal_technology_priority = 15000000.0;
was--double sue_franchise_priority = 2000000.0;
is-- double sue_franchise_priority = 20000000.0;
was--int captured_city_defend_turns = 3;
is-- int captured_city_defend_turns = 5;
was--int max_build_building_rounds = 15.0;
is-- int max_build_building_rounds = 25.0;
was--int max_build_unit_rounds = 20.0;
is-- int max_build_unit_rounds = 25.0;
was--int max_build_wonder_rounds = 35.0;
is-- int max_build_wonder_rounds = 50.0;
was--int num_city_defenders = 1;
is-- int num_city_defenders = 3;

It's true that in the higher difficulty levels of the game the AI gets extra gold and production to start the game. If you don't like this you can always play chieftian

I don't know about you but I like to buy things especially contracting out things around the house. So you get more gold to buy city improvements.

Here's the link again so you don't have to go up top: http://www.angelfire.com/nt/dutcheese/moddetails.txt http://www.angelfire.com/nt/dutcheese/default.html

Dutcheese
[This message has been edited by dutcheese to correct the links (edited August 16, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by dutcheese (edited August 16, 1999).]

**Harlan** · August 17, 1999, 01:09

This looks like a good addition- keep up the good work.

You mention that you had to strengthen Seige Weapons because they didn't know to stack. Which makes me wonder, for those who know the AI files better than I do (which is very little!), is there a way to control a unit's or civ's desire to stack? That would be great, as I think more stacking would make a much better AI, esp. if it can be controlled by unit type.

TP · August 17, 1999, 01:57

Dutcheese,

Thank you very much for your fast reaction and your detailed answer. I just downloaded the moddetails and had a look at them. I will install your MOD with the AI changes only (so no pollution, no terrain/goods, no enhanced AI cheating).

I am looking forward to get crushed by the AI in my next game :-)

TP

**JimMac** · August 17, 1999, 15:07

Upon returning from a short holiday I am pleased to note yet another potentially useful mod. The A.I. in CTP could definitely benefit from some improvement.

Although I understand that there may be lots of people who get their fun from this type of game by spending loads of money on improvements, amassing a massive army, and then crushing the opposition, it doesn’t do it for me. I find that it is more “fun” to have your resources stretched, constantly forcing you to decide whether to spend your limited resources on a required city improvement or a needed unit. The more I am forced to choose between strategies, the better the strategy game. Therefore I agree with TP that there is already enough gold in the game, so no more for roads and other improvements please. (As a side note,- is it possible to alter the score break up to include points for gold amassed? In multiplayer I would then have second thoughts about whether I should spend any gold, thus reducing my score.)

Dutcheese, I have downloaded your mod with the intention of trying out the AI files. It is apparent from your notes that you have put in a lot of work on this matter, for that you are to be commended.(I wish I knew how the AI files work. I tried reading CDs notes, but still couldn’t figure it out.(I guess my intelligence isn’t any better than the AI after all!)

I haven’t looked at your files properly yet, so this may be a stupid question, but it appears that you have added the fighter back to the AIs build list, although CD removed it. If I install your AI files only but keep the rest of CDs mod, will the AI or I have any difficulties with this unit (or indeed any other unit?)

Again credit to you for tackling the weaknesses of the AI.

(Now if only there was a Diplomacy improvement patch, the people on the TOT forum complaining about CTP might think again)

JimMac

**dutcheese** · August 17, 1999, 16:00

Hi JimMac,

If really don't want to try the mod with the extra gold install everything but...

goods.txt
terrain.txt

If you also do not want to play against a kick started AI then do not load the...

DiffDB.txt

The goods.txt gives an extra 5 gold for those special tiles like crab and oil.

The terrain.txt gives 1 gold for each farm advance tile places. IE a tile with a basic farm gets 1 extra gold, upgraded farm gets 2 extra gold, and advanced farm gets 3 extra gold.

Road, rail, and speed rail only ever give the same extra gold--1.

You get more gold too, 5 extra, for the tile where you place your city.

The DiffDB.txt gives the AI a jump start by giving the AI limited gold and production at the start of the game... Originally AI gold and pw was set to 0.

Chieftain
AI_START_UNITS 0
AI_START_GOLD 3000
AI_START_PUBLIC_WORKS 1500

Warlord
AI_START_UNITS 1
AI_START_GOLD 4000
AI_START_PUBLIC_WORKS 3000

Prince
AI_START_UNITS 2
AI_START_GOLD 5000
AI_START_PUBLIC_WORKS 5000

King
AI_START_UNITS 2
AI_START_GOLD 10000
AI_START_PUBLIC_WORKS 10000

Emperor
AI_START_UNITS 3
AI_START_GOLD 50000
AI_START_PUBLIC_WORKS 15000

God (Deity)
AI_START_UNITS 4
AI_START_GOLD 60000
AI_START_PUBLIC_WORKS 20000

All the units including fighter still work.

You and TP should both try with and without the extra gold and kick start method and rate them.

Hi Harlan,

In the AIP files (default.aip) you can set the matching_force_ratio for attack and defense to force big groups of stacks but I don't know of a way to say stack a certian unit--would like to stack the siege weapon and planes too.

Dutcheese

**JimMac** · August 18, 1999, 19:26

Thanks for the info. Dutcheese.

I have a further query, which TP if you see this you may be able to help with;-

I installed the AI files and necessary txt/GL files in order to get the changes to work, but kept most of my other files unchanged.

I played one game to 70+ turns, when I remembered that I needed to change my newly installed advance.txt to reflect my preference for an earlier infrastructure, so I started again. And I am now in turn 40 of that game. (Both standard size maps, 8 civs)

It seems to me that even in these early stages, the game on both occasions appears to playing differently from my CD 4.2 games, in a way which may not improve the game. (But two starts clearly are not enough to make any judgement, so TP if you have tried this mod out I would be interested in your opinion)

In my pre Dutcheese games I usually found that “scouting” AI units got in my way very early in the game, when they seemed to be heading for rivers and other prime sites where they fortified until their settlers arrived.

However in these two games this has not happened. In the first game I did not meet an AI until I found their city on turn 66, despite us both being on the same (but fairly big) continent. While in the second game although I met the AI fairly quickly, (we were both on a fairly small island) there definitely seems to be less AI units about. Apart from the odd warrior or slaver I see only cities.

Now, it is possible that perhaps I simply got unusual starting locations or maybe I am imagining things! However, I wonder if the AI changes are resulting in fewer scouts (more defenders in cities perhaps), and if this is true, is this better for the game or worse?!!

Thanks
JimMac

**Grand Master Fe Long** · August 18, 1999, 22:58

Your mod looks pretty good! After the patch 1.2 comes out i'm going to upgrade my own mod - LW1 for cd's mod. Maybe it would benefit ctp players if combined our two mods at that time, what do you think?

TP · August 19, 1999, 18:48

JimMac,

I have not yet enough gaming experience with this MOD. I tested it for about 10 minutes in the full install, i.e. with gold changes. As assumed, the game got ways too easy due to less need for strategic decisions and a massive overload of gold.

Since then I installed it without changes on gold (i.e. using CD's changes and my personal wages adjustment) and pollution and are playtesting this a little bit. So far I have not seen a lot of changes which would make me think "Yep, that's a clear sign of a more challenging AI". It's very hard to tell whether a specific AI behaviour is driven by those changes or not. Yes of course the AI is now further in the game as previously, but this is simply driven by the fact that the AI gets much more gold, public works and advances than previously at the start of a game.

So overall I do not yet want to assess this, however most likely will not put merge this MOD with my personal one.

Now you may ask me: Why that ? And what are you doing that you can't really assess this MOD yet ? Simple answer: I am terribly in love with my latest CTP game (which I am playing together with my gf to get some female intuition into the game). Unfortunately I am not very good in describing things in a nice attractive and interesting way, but overall the following happened:

Huge map, 4 civs in total, Deity Level, CD's MOD, small personal changes in wages, advance-stealing, interface etc. Wanted to have some time to develop silently. Got that time. Researched new advances, built new cities, happily enslaved barbarians. Got on the powergraph (and my rankings) clearly #2 in the world. Thought "Mmmh you may forget this game, sooner or later the strong Indonesians will roll over you with a few tanks". Still decided to go on for learning purposes. Greeks going on my nerves with trespassing (we all love that, don't we). So decided to get rid of them just for the purpose of doing a favour for this world (Mark, no offense please). Slowly but steadily took their cities (first one was nearly unbeatable within the mountains on a strategic location and 9 units in there, 3 of them cannons). Also slowly but steadily understood that our beloved Indonesians seemed to increase their strength at a lower pace than us. Started to dream seriously of taking the world over. Went into advance race with them (via Virtual Democracy), stole some advances and franchised them heavily. OVERTOOK THEM ! 5 years later, small flooding. Talked to all civs to reduce pollution (we personally had of course recycling centers everywhere). Damn Indonesians started to launch into space with a lot of units. 20 Rounds later ozone desaster. Loads of dead tiles (fortunately more on their side). Decided to save the earth and started to build the Gaia controller. Too late - big flooding. Lost 12 of my 38 cities as they sunk into the ocean. Lost half of my powergraph. Indonesians as well. Got really angry with them. They too. Currently we are taking each other's cities. They have a massive unit amount, we have better strategic thinking. Don't know where this leads to - both of us could win. I LOVE THIS GAME ! Took quite some time to modify it but now it is a nice diamond. So now you know why I am not yet fully playtesting this MOD.

TP

P.S. To anyone still reading here: Can you confirm that the AI does never happen to successfully build the Alien life ? Please shortly post here and telling us whether you work with or without CD's MOD. Would be more than interested in that.

[This message has been edited by TP (edited August 19, 1999).]

**dutcheese** · August 20, 1999, 00:57

Hi JimMac,

Not really sure which files of the MOD you are loading and therefore I'm not sure how the game will play.

If you do not load the advance.txt that comes with the MOD you nor the AI will ever be able to complete the end game project. In fact the game will crash if the AI tries to study the alien biology advance and you are not using the advance.txt that comes with the MOD.

About your game play... The AI could be in defense and growth mode. Have you been able to capture an opposing city? and are any of the AI cities in the top 5 list? How does this compare to using the full MOD?

The full MOD provides a challenge and the AIs are pretty unstoppable by the year 1500 or 1600.

Could try to increase the wondering effect in a future release if a majority feel it would add to the game play. Might cause a decrease in AI defense during the early stages of the game though.

Grand Master Fe Long,

Really sounds good. Maybe even combine other MODs to make a best of the best MOD.

Dutcheese

**dutcheese** · August 20, 1999, 01:34

Any comments from someone that really played the MOD?

Dutcheese

**Grand Master Fe Long** · August 23, 1999, 00:10

If anyone wants a copy of the NEW LW1 add-on for CD's Mod + Really Play CTP as it should be v1 - Combined! E-mail me at Waters_1981@hotmail.com and ask for LW1C.

Announcement

Really Play CTP as it should be MOD

Really Play CTP as it should be MOD

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