Voluntary "Homework Assignment!"

[Chowlett]

Top Marks that man! Such an easy thing to forget, and I haven't seen it mentioned yet! You may possibly be the first person to point the obvious out to us.

Apologies if we had already thought of this, and I'm just slow

[Velociryx]

No...I hadn't seen that mentioned anyplace as yet either...and yes! Another outstanding idea!

As part of my ongoing research, I just purchased a copy of Lords of Magic....it's a very different *sort* of game than what we're shooting for, but it bore enough similarity that I thought I might learn something from it.

And btw, I really like Cyclo's alternative plan of dealing with diplomacy....either way....a "minimize and I'll get back to you" window or a "howdy" and then "me again" approach...both would work quite well and accomplish the goal of allowing the player to take all the time needed to make diplo decisions....

-=Vel=-

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Velociryx
No...I hadn't seen that mentioned anyplace as yet either...and yes! Another outstanding idea!

You mean my name will reach the Credits? j/k

Originally posted by Velociryx
both would work quite well and accomplish the goal of allowing the player to take all the time needed to make diplo decisions....

Hum, don't forget to include a timer for Multiplayer!

About The General, wow, I can't believe I just spent over 2 hours on it and... lost!
Quite addicting! Simple and addicting!
Now it's bet time.

[Cyclotron]

Basically, diplomacy would happen spanning one turn... which is probably more "realistic" anyways, since messages weren't exactly instant back then.

During any player's turn, that player may contact any other player with a deal or offer. The other player recieves that offer at the beginning of their turn. At the end of their turn, the contacted player must make their decsion and do their bargaining.

A question: Should bargaining be absolute? As in, if I say to my friend that I will ally with him for 20 gold, does he choose to either deny or agree to that as is (he must send me a counter-offer if he wants to change the price), or can we bargain a la Civ3 when he contacts me back?

[Ramo]

I can't seem to use my mouse in DOS games in Windows XP. I'd appreciate some help.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by cyclotron7
During any player's turn, that player may contact any other player with a deal or offer. The other player recieves that offer at the beginning of their turn. At the end of their turn, the contacted player must make their decsion and do their bargaining.

This begs the question though as to whether an AI/player can rescind/alter a deal during the course of a round.
For example, if a slightly war weary AI were to offer a peace treaty at the beginning of a players turn, the player would otherwise then be able to loot/pillage/strike unconditionally during his/her turn only to accept the AI's offer at the end (by which point the AI's position might have changed ... drastically).

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Ramo
I can't seem to use my mouse in DOS games in Windows XP. I'd appreciate some help.

If you're running XP you might not have dos drivers installed.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by ravagon
This begs the question though as to whether an AI/player can rescind/alter a deal during the course of a round.
For example, if a slightly war weary AI were to offer a peace treaty at the beginning of a players turn, the player would otherwise then be able to loot/pillage/strike unconditionally during his/her turn only to accept the AI's offer at the end (by which point the AI's position might have changed ... drastically).

I understand. Well, I would assume that in the negotioation phase at the end of the target player's turn, either player could reject the treaty. The deal cannot be altered during the round, but it can still be altered during the negotioation phase.

[Velociryx]

Actually, having slept on it, it seems to me that both methods discussed allow for the exact same thing, with a minor variation in presentation.

Under either method discussed, you would either send the diplomat on his way for a bit while you took your turn, or minimize the diplo window and go about your business...moving units, attacking, taking your turn, whathaveyou, and then, at or near the end of your turn, you could resolve the offer tabled.

's a good point though, regarding the acceptance/declination of a tabled offer, and, IMO, this is the very reason why diplomacy in other games require immediate resolution of the tabled offer (because events during the course of the current turn can, and most often will change the equation.

Two ways come to mind re: handling this.

First, we could allow players faced with a diplomatic offer to do everything but move troops and attack prior to the resolution of the offer. This would enable to you take care of your current build orders, etc, check on whatever reports you needed to consult to determine whether or not you wanted to accept the offer, then resolve the diplomacy before making combat oriented moves (which makes sense....the army is often put on hold pending diplomatic negotiations).

Or, we could freeze the game until the diplo offer has been resolved. Take a "you can look but you can't touch" approach to the various screens. (can consult any screen or report you want, but can't make any changes till the diplo offer is resolved).

Which is preferable, or, is there some other option I've not thought of yet?

-=Vel=-

[Chowlett]

As far as I can see, both methods are essentially the same: about the only actions that will affect a diplomatic situation are movement of troops, attacks and possibly gifting of units and money (if the proposal is "downgrade an alliance, which actually doesn't require a response except for "I acknowledge"). Basically, doing anything else shouldn't really affect either person's view of the deal in any significant way.

That said, since stuff you do may, in some minor way, affect the deal on the table, I would suggest the latter approach - you are the monarch, the diplomat is standing before you. You may call your advisors and check the latest reports, but out of pure courtesy you should supply a response to the man before you start telling your peasants to put up a new library. It simplifies things greatly as well - if you could do stuff before considering the offer, then you would have to give the other player the chance to adjust the offer. While this would be Ok in IP play, under hotseat or PBEM (which I assume we plan to implement), it means diplomatic deals could take many, many turns - which, as evidenced by SMAC, while workable is not ideal.

[Velociryx]

::nodding:: That's an excellent point as well....essentially, allowing in-game activities to occur penalizes the one who initiates the offer unless we were to build in a mechanism to allow for renegotiation.

-=Vel=-

[xRamsesx]

All this diplomacy talk Vel ... free version or commercial version?

[Velociryx]

Definately commercial....didn't wanna give you a heart attack...

For the free version, I'm seeing MP as being largely open ended in that, MP games, players can communicate back and forth and make whatever informal arrangements they want...SP, the AI will be a big ol' punching bag, with two statuses (stati? lol) possible...either at war or not at war (neutrality)....no peace accords, no mercy....none of that stuff. It's either tooth and nail or leavin' each other aone for the time being.

-=Vel=-
(unless you think we can squeeze some of this stuff in! And in that case....)

[xRamsesx]

pffeewww

Nah, seriously, I personally think that the ideas brought up so far are really cool. Being able to check your info before commiting to diplomatic action is definitly something that's been missing in games (at least the ones I've played). Personally I'm attracted by Cyclo's idea ... i like the notion of being able to put the offer aside whilst you tend to other kingdom matters and think about it. I definitly agree that some kind of renogotiating system will be needed though. As for PBEM, and hotseat ... to be honest I don't think we can implement those. Parts of the game design are closer to RTS than TBS. Influence blocking for instance is one of them. The other being the combat. It's a tier based system that needs both player's input for the duration of all battles. That makes PBEM and (to a lessser extent) hotseat unrealistic ways of playing the game.

[Ramo]

If you're running XP you might not have dos drivers installed.

I don't follow you. What use are DOS drivers in XP?