Demo Bugs / Problems

[Solver]

Good comments again... will keep these in mind for future improvements, at least some of these things we can do. Seasons, by the way, are 24 turns only I think, not 60 for sure. A turn is two weeks, so six turns is three months or a season... indeed that's 24.

Also, I may have discovered the reason for your experienced major stability problems. Our engine doesn't play nice with Vista, at least in some cases and that can cause major crashes/errors in the main interface. I'm working on a fix to that. This is one of those cases again where our lack of testing machines is problematic. Oh well, at least we're finding out about these problems from the public.

[El_Cid]

1.Since seeing the whole map is more a question of flavour than anything else, you may use a simplified view - e.g. not all provinces, but show a barren map (no province borders/names) with only the starting province locations highlighted.

....edit......

2.Zooming out means you don't need that much scrolling, and can see what's happening far away (if you have intelligence there). It could help selection. It would also provide an overall vie that I feel is missing right now.
Zooming in would make army/province selection easier.

3.It's obvious, but too brutal. A year is 60 turns if I read the documentation well. Changes should be progressive.I'd suggest looking for screenshots of Birth of America, which did this quite well. You also have a vine up there in the upper left corner standing doing nothing, you could change it to show the season.

I'll just pick out these concerns for now(I got a small bit of time!). Overall LDiCesare, your coments are good and well observed. This is a very early version, i'd almost go as far to say a pre-alpha build. Candle'Bre has so much detail and flavour to convey(from what i remember reading here years back) that we can only look on this demo as a very early base build. It's currently a very simple war game(build armies/buildings/cast spells/kill all other factions). But it is something, it is a game and it can and is being built upon - the more jump in to help the better i suspect

the points below are not answers directly to your posts LDiCesare, but more like looking at the things you posted and discussing them some more:

ok point 1: re seeing the whole world map as opposed to just the 'basin' that Candle'Bre plays out in. I agree with both your comments and Solvers on this.
On the one had it would be nice to see more of the world, to get a better context of where you are, the mountains cutting this area off from the rest of the world is a good idea, but also makes you want to see whats beyond them.

On the other hand the technical trick of doing so in game would be quite a high price to pay(resource/dev wise) for a feature that you can't actualy make use of - you can't travel to it, so why show it?

Still i suppose my overall concern might be that to the player what you have so far, as it is currently displayed in the demo, may seem too small. It's probably an aspect of scale but that may well be tied into the resolution for the artwork that you have available. It might also be in part playing it in windowed mode mostly?

Often in games that cover a large(or world ) area but played out in part of that, you would get something in the documentation to show where in that worls your game is taking place - it can help cut out feelings of claustrophobia, and gives the player a better idea in the mind of where they are. I like LDiCesares' suggestion of including something in the manual that would show part of this world around Candle'Bre - just vague lines, 'terra incognita' kind of thing. On the game itself you could go to the trouble of showing some of that kind of thing also, but it may just pull the players focus away? You would have to experiment with it i think to be sure.

Point 2: re zooming in the game. Again this could be used to increase the size of the game area in the players mind. OR you could try a more zoomed in view as default(but would need a minimap) that could show a bit more detail in the provinces as is(maybe the buildings you built as LDiCesares mentioned?), a bit more topography and terrain features(trees/hills/rivers etc), but overall i guess the aim would be to make the game world seem a little bigger than it currently comes across in a windowed screen.

The downside to all this is the extra effort you may need to do this. Personaly this kind of thing i would leave as a 'nice idea' to have in a more final build of the game.

As it is the scale used so far, while maybe too small for army sprites(it would be nice to see them in more detail somewhere?), is very functional. You can get around all the provinces pretty quick. I guess as there is not much to do currently, nor see especialy the scale thing is more noticable? Given some nice rpg/quest/diplomatic dealing/Candle'Bre flavour stuff to do you might notice this less. If a fairly 'small' map that is quick to get around is merely the backdrop for lots of detail 'in game', then you may have it about right.

unless there is something to see or do when zooming in, you probably don't need it?

Point 3: Seasons. Yeah I knew 'white' was winter - very obvious, but as someone who still hasn't read the manual/readme/detail of Candle'Bres world(well a long time ago!), I would say the others are not that noticable, not enough to just leave it as a pure colour change thing on the map. So far winter is the only change i really notice. So yeah maybe near the game year display, a season reference might be good. And on that does it have any gameplay effect(like armies moving less in winter/crops harvested in autumn etc)?

[Velociryx]

Good discussion!

Re: Point 1 and the Basin vs. the "rest of the world" - We've actually held some (brief) talks about What Lies Beyond, and it is alluded to in the books that this is the next step in the evolution of things. I have some firm ideas about what's out there, but at this time, I'd like the main focus to be on getting the Basin right and sorted out, so I can totally see some type of sketch being included in the documentation, but you're quite right El Cid, when you point out that there's maybe a tiny bit of claustrophobia associated with the map. Our goal is to minimize things so that you *almost* don't notice it when playing, and to accomplish this via layers of detail (you can already see some of the foundation of this in the spell system and the demographics system, especially), but I don't think we want to completely conceal that feeling...buildup for the sequel..

Point 2 and the zoom feature...I would be happy with a net larger map in general...one that's big enough that we could show more information directly on the map (provincial improvements would be the first thing that comes to my mind, but there are plenty of others). Then of course if we had the bigger map, a "zoom out" feature would be nice for ease of map navigation (so it didn't take a minute and a half to scroll across trentare, or whathaveyou), but I do not know how quickly we could implement something like that. It IS something that gets talked about, but it's not something we have immediate plans for.

Good to hear though, that there are folks outside the dev circle who also have this same interest, and that of course makes things more likely to be actionable, but bear in mind that if we can figure out how to deliver this, it probably won't be be quick or soon in coming.

Item 3 - Calendar/passage of time: A good idea to put a seasonal indicator up there next to the year. If we can do it without crowding all the information together (and I think that's prolly possible), then I think it'd be a great addition!

Next build will have winter warfare penalties, so that opens the door for other seasonal type effects, sure.

And Solver's dead on with the calendar. 24 turns = 1 game year.

-=Vel=-

[LDiCesare]

To clarify a few things:
A map of the whole basin in the manual could show the starting locations. Now I've started the game once, and since the map looks fixed, my choice of a faction will have 99% to do with starting location and 1% with the starting honor/gold and special bonus effects. (I mean, a faction on a border will not have two neighbours to fight, makes the game much easier than a central start.)

Regarding seasons, I didn't notice any season except winter either.

[Velociryx]

That's not a bad plan re: the map in the manual and starting positions, but re: the central starts...everything has its tradeoffs...WestKeep and EastGate are the two most valuable pieces of real estate in the game, and a quick strike toward one of your enemies could set you in a really powerful position...

-=Vel=-

[Solver]

Good point again, I'll see how the full map might go into documentation for its next update.

As for gameplay depth, you people are right that the current build is a bit lacking in some departments, such as intelligence gathering and the like. This is, in part, why we're keeping this build pretty low-key, only with some advertising here on Apolyton. We found out about initial player reactions and about some PC configurations that cause problems. That's very important info, but we also know that it's a bit lacking in depth now.

The good thing is, the next version is almost exclusively focused on that depth. It takes the concepts that have been a foundation for the game thus far and expands on those in more depth. For example, factions other than Mourngrym get faction-specific events. Seasons, which are just a graphical effect for now, gain importance (attacking is harder during winter). Merchants get their building, currently them being the only social group without a building. Taverns, which currently have no downside, get a downside as well. Neutral provinces are defended by variable numbers of defenders - and so on. I'm hoping that version won't disappoint as far as adding depth goes.

[LDiCesare]

Loaded a save game, got an error immediately. I attach the save in case it's reproducible.
Stack trace:
IrrlichNETCP.GUIListBox.GUIListBox_AddItemA(IntPtr listb, String text)
IrrlichNETCP.GUIListBox.AddItem(String text)
CandleBre.GameGUI.AddGameMessage(GameMessage msg)
CandleBre.Province.DoSiege()
CandleBre.Province.DoTurn()
CandleBre.Player.EndTurn()
CandleBre.PlayerAI.DoTurn()
CandleBre.Game.NextTurn()
CandleBre.GameGUI.device_OnEvent(Event ev)

[Solver]

Yep, won't reproduce. It's a problem that doesn't happen on my machine and seems to be due to Vista, that's the issue we're working on now. I believe you should have a PM from Vel in your inbox.

[LDiCesare]

Had another try at the game.
I HATE Intercession. It's extremely easy to put up 2 or 3 of these every turn, effectively blocking an opponent. Makes the game a micromanaging nightmare as you try to attack every turn to remove the intercession, and move ohter troops on another front to get around it. Of course, you can get rid of intercession if you have a spell, but that is still REALLY annoying.

[Solver]

It doesn't really get easy until the player has several influence-generating provinces that allow for more or less constant intercessions. I do of course keep some mana around and what I prefer to do is check if the province has an intercession before attacking and then use Purging if it does.

[LDiCesare]

What's the strategy to use with pillage? Hope for an armed rebellion so you can lose the province? A non rebelling province with -421 loyalty is somewhat a liability.

[Solver]

We'll be tweaking the effects of those in the next version because currently, indeed, pillaging is rarely worth it. I sometimes do it if I also have enough influence. Then I may pillage and hope for Binding Chant to see me through, although yes, currently it's not really worth it. Maybe if it's a province you can't hold anyway. Go in, pillage, get out of there and let the AI take it.

[LDiCesare]

Been playing a bit more.
Full screen doesn't work on my machine (Vista striking again I suppose), as it doesn't change screen resolution so I have a small borderless window in the top left corner of the screen.
Found my way around intercession: Send 100 infantry there. Intercession stops them. Then send 1000 infantry and 200 siege from the same province, and you're all set. This trick effectively turns intercession into a waste of influence.
I believe influence/mana/espionage should be less plentiful to be interesting. Right now someone extorts your province, you purge it, rinse and repeat ad nauseam.
Is there any mechanics planned that would prevent a player who starts dominating from running away with the game? (I know diplomacy and an alliance of the 3 remaining powersz vs. the ogre who ate one neighbour might do it, but just might).

[El_Cid]

Been playing a bit more.
Full screen doesn't work on my machine (Vista striking again I suppose), as it doesn't change screen resolution so I have a small borderless window in the top left corner of the screen.

I found this as well(and mentioned it in one of my posts) - i think what it does in 'fullscreen' is set it up but just in the games native 1024x768, and if your native monitors resolution is higher it just fits it into that resolution, so you end up with the screen on the top left of your desktop space. I'm running XP, so this is not a Vista issue.

Found my way around intercession: Send 100 infantry there. Intercession stops them. Then send 1000 infantry and 200 siege from the same province, and you're all set. This trick effectively turns intercession into a waste of influence.

Yep this is a cheap trick(no cost to your 100 infantry either if it's an ex-neutral territory and the resident army has already been crushed), and even at the cost of 100 men i find it cheaper than builing up enough mana to cast purge, I keep all my mana for lightning strikes. I've also seen the AI do it(i think?) as it explains some odd events that happened in some games(not seeing a purge event mentioned, knowing you have an intercession on a province then seeing an AI army move into it).

[Solver]

That full screen behaviour is, I believe, due to it being unable to change from you screen color depth, the game tries to get 24 bits but the desktops are set to 32.

At any rate, a plethora of Vista issues have been discovered over the past couple days. That includes the crashing issues, as well as some graphical issues that also prevent the next version from functioning as intended. I am looking into those now but it's a bit problematic - the engine doesn't really love Vista and I don't have the ability to do any proper Vista testing locally.