Strategy Notes

[Velociryx]

Hmm...yes, that is true. Extortion is rather a "wild west" affair with players continuously vying for control.

That actually makes for a more intriguing line of thought then. On the one hand, you're tempted to "shoot the biggest elephants" with extortion, in order to maximize the monetary gains, but on the other...so is everybody else, which might prompt you to target less valuable provinces for coin. True, you get less money per turn for the espionage spent, but you also get a longer "shelf life" for your extortion counters.

Mourngrym still might suffer the worst from extortion hits (SOMEBODY is bound to try to make money off of them...it's just too tempting a target), but it also puts some of the other factions more "at risk." I wonder (and will run some experiments on this) about the viability of a Tavern first approach for the Mystics, targeting the Council. IronPort isn't as sexy as WestKeep/EastGate, and so you're likely to get more life out of your counters (plus, it's a relatively cheap play, and with two Taverns early, you can replace them if they DO get blasted, either by somebody else making a bid or by Purging), and the income, while not on par with what you'd get by gunning for the bigger provinces, would still add handsomely to your coffers.

Agree though, that it's more of a MM approach, as you've got to constantly check to see if you've been "bumped" (which, longer term, we might want to investigate some possibililties for reducing this bit of MM).

-=Vel=-

[JustinSane]

One thing I've noticed with extortion is that the AIs quite like it. It's not too far into the game that every province has 10% extortion on it. So if you want to use extortion to weaken a specific opponent, the smart play may not be extorting their provinces (someone else already will be, so they're already losing that income), but checking which provinces they are extorting, then extorting those to deprive them of that income. I've not tried this is a truly competitive situation (I was well ahead already both times), but it seems like it would make the most sense. Mostly though, I just ignore extortion (largely due to the micro-management burden you cited). I find the more direct approaches more fun, though that is of course just a personal preference .

Edit: Oh, and I'm sure that a tavern first approach is viable for the Mystics, but I'd be a bit surprised to find it was optimal. I think that you'd make more money faster by using the resources it would take to build taverns by either building infantry and taking low pop provinces or by financing festivals to raise loyalty. Sample math: Figure that a tavern costs 4 festivals or 4 infantry units. In the case of the festivals, assume 4 festivals will gain about 40 loyalty in your original provinces. At an average population of 22,500, an additional 40 loyalty is worth 90 gold/turn. One solid extortion isn't likely to take more than 50 gold/turn, and in my limited experience you'll use up a tavern's worth of production renewing it as other empires unprop it. If you had built the 4 infantry units rather than taverns in both starting provinces, that would give a total of 14, sufficient to take a province. And (to the best of my limited understanding) any province is going to give more income than a tavern's worth of sustained extortion. A sigil also produces the equivalent of .25 infantry/turn (in that it can destroy .25/turn enemy infantry), with the additional advantages of no upkeep for a mana pool and flexibility to use the mana for something other than storm if the situation dictates. If you figure the true cost of an infantry unit at something around 250 gold (including a few turns upkeep and something for the -4 loyalty hit), .25 infantry/turn is worth 62.5 gold/turn. Again, that's better than you're going to do with extortion.



One risk of making IronPort your extortion target, if risk is the correct term, is that it then becomes a less appealing conquest target. But many times it's strategically difficult to avoid taking it, when you lose your extortion income. Whereas if you targeted for instance the furies, you might have a more long lasting income stream. Just a thought .

[Velociryx]

Things will get more interesting of course, as more missions, spells, and miracles become available, but one other thing that stands in favor of the Taverns first is the fact that right now, with espionage being the "weakest link" of the three (taverns, sigils, and shines), there's not much of an opportunity cost for spending your espi points on extortion, even if it's simply to replace or prop up your existing income claims. Time and additional missions will fix that, and if we can figure some way to undo the MM nightmare, I'm thinking it'll become an increasingly attractive option (I like the idea too of using extort as a denial...cheap way to knock somebody else's income stream down, which is almost as good as boosting yours).

Initially, we made extort even cheaper than it is now, and it was easily the most used and abused option on the board (well, right behind Sabotage...in an early build, you could perform multiple sabotages in a single turn, meaning you could essentially blow all of a fort's counters down in a single turn...a bit overpowering, so we limited it to 1xturn/province, but it was scary to see an AI take 2-3 provinces in a single turn once they got a few taverns up...wow.

-=Vel=-

[TCO]

Sorry.

[Velociryx]

Apology accepted. Have you tried the latest build? Care to join us in discussing it?

-=Vel=-

[JustinSane]

I actually like the idea of unlimited sabotage, particularly once three way balancing among second tier resources is in. That sounds like fun, both as the attacker and to defend against . It would make the game a lot more precarious and dynamic. An espionage focused opponent would have weaker direct military force than a mana or influence focused faction, but you'd best not let one get a temporary or localized superiority in force, or you'll lose provinces very quickly - cool . I can totally understand that not being the direction you wanted to take your game however, as it would make proceedings pretty chaotic. By the way, in your post you mentioned that sabotage was intended to be limited to one per turn in each province, but it seems to be in the demo build at least an absolute limit of one per turn - I was not able to sabotage two different provinces in one turn.

More opening theory .

I've worked out (drawing heavily from your recommendations) a couple of different openings for the Fury. One at this point is I think clearly stronger than the other, but I'll list both as the balance could easily tip with different builds and I think the weaker one is at least interesting.

As Fury, you have the second lowest population in the game (bad) and weaker long term inherent advantages than any other faction (worse). Alright, that's the bad news. Now the good news .

You've got an incredibly versatile, dynamic starting position. Your starting loyalty is the best in the game (thanks to your aristocrat dominated starting provinces), averaging better than 70. Your loyalty is also easily controlled compared to the other factions (excepting the Mystics) due to your low population. These factors open up options other factions just don't have - you can construct buildings quicker while still not dropping below the minimum to train troops, or you can start an infantry pump from turn one and run a net surplus.

Even better, you start near some of the best provinces in the game. In fact Trentare, to your south, is when fully developed the best province in the game by a comfortable margin. If that weren't enough you also start adjacent to the best low pop province (Rook's Roost) and at one province of separation from the second best low pop province (Brom), both of which have unique trade goods that can provide massive income. On top of that, there are a number of sheltered low pop provinces to your northwest that you can pluck, and there are several more good medium to high population provinces close by (notably, in rough order of importance, Stroudhaven, Kell, Wyndamere and Vandamere).

So you can get a military force together quicker than anyone else (possibly excepting Mourngrym), and you've got better options to choose from when using that force than anyone else. Very cool.

Here is option #1. I really liked this in concept, but the execution just doesn't seem as strong as option #2. That said, it is sound and more than good enough to get a very comfortable position. You just may not win as quickly. The goal of this opening is to absorb and stabilize Trentare as soon as possible. Targeting it straight away doesn't make sense for the reasons Velociryx explained - it's very resistant to festivals due to its huge population and at negative loyalty is a drain on your treasury. But if you can take it and rapidly convince its population of the virtues of your rulership, there's no finer province.

First, we're going to get morale in both of our starting provinces up to over 85 by festivals. So turn one, festivals in both provinces. Then continue to run festivals as you accumulate sufficient gold until both are over 85 (shouldn't take too long at all). Then, hit end turn until you've got 2,500 gold. At that point, start simultaneously construction on both shrines (we waited until we could afford both so that we wouldn't be delayed in getting the cash for the second by the reduced tax revenue we'd have suffered due to the -20 loyalty hit if we'd started a shrine in one province as soon as we could afford it). This should be around turn 8-10.

Now it's time to start the infantry pump. Build them as quickly as you can and mass in Parthaway until you've got 14. Spend your excess gold on festivals. Your shrines should finish 8 turns after you start them, around turn 16-18. When you've got 14 infantry units, move into Rook's Roost. This will be around turn 20. Keep up the infantry pump to support the siege, but if you ever accumulate 17, cut production.

In a few turns you'll take Rook's Roost. Take the option to sell the excess fuel, since income means a lot right now - and with that choice, you'll be gaining 325 gold/turn off fuel sales alone.

Any gold you make beyond essential troop production will go now towards festivals to stabilize your new province. Fortunately, this won't take too long since it is a low population province. You will likely have at least 14 infantry, but if you don't, keep pumping until you do. Move your army back to Parthaway, and from there, it's time to take Trentare (immediately if you've got at least 14 infantry, or as soon as you do have 14 if you've taken heavy losses capturing Rook's Roost).

As the siege progresses you'll feel the increased income from Rook's Roost. Get loyalty there up to at least 60, and then divert income to festivals in all 3 provinces, wherever loyalty is lowest each time you get 500 gold. Around turn 30, you'll take Trentare. Your early shrines will pay off now, as you should have enough influence for at least 3 and probably 4 chants. Run them immediately. Trentare's loyalty will vary, depending on how long the siege took and the die rolls you get on your chants, but it should at a minimum get loyalty to a positive number rather than a negative one.

Move your army back to Cerilon and resume the infantry pump from your two starting provinces. When you get 1,250 gold, start a shrine in Rook's Roost. After that, excess gold can be used for festivals in your starting provinces, then once those get loyalty close to max, taverns. Once you've got a shrine started in Rook's Roost, start pumping infantry there too. Each time you get 60 influence, run another chant on Trentare. You want to completely max loyalty there at 115 - giving you close to 700 gold a turn from that province alone.

As soon as you get 14 infantry units move into HloHaas, and after you take that, move into Brom. Take the "sell" option on Brom's unique trade good - it's worth around 400 gold a turn .

At this point you can do whatever you want. You're rich and have good production, excellent loyalty control and a decent standing army. Stroudhaven and Kell are attractive targets. You may also want to build up a second army to collect all those provinces to your Northwest. A few sigils may not be a bad idea - you've got the income to build them easily.

Or you could take the direct approach - crunch Mourngrym, take their excellent starting provinces, and enjoy the ludicrous income that results from having nearly all the best provinces in the game!

Option #2 will be coming soon.

[TCO]

No. No. I only troll. Will try to resist.

[Velociryx]

Well, if you change your mind, we'd love to get your insights, and I'm looking forward to Justin's next Fury post!

-=Vel=-

[JustinSane]

Opening option #2 for the Fury. The foundation of this strategy is that the provinces of Rook's Roost and Brom are uniquely valuable early game assets due to their income from goods. Between the two of them they generate about 700 gold/turn of goods income alone. That type of income at that point in the game isn't really achievable by anyone else (to my knowledge) without either starting as Mourngrym or putting substantial resources and effort into boosting loyalty and can provides great flexibility going forward.

As it so happens, the Fury also start with the ability to start a sustainable infantry pump on turn one due to their high loyalty and modest provincial population (making festivals an efficient method of counter-acting the loyalty drain of continuous infantry production).

Turn one: Festival in Parthaway, infantry started in both provinces. Infantry production continues in both until you have 14 (running festivals as the treasury allows in whichever province has lower loyalty at the time), at which point it's time to siege Rook's Roost (turn 11). During the siege, maintain infantry production to replaces losses in the initial action and from defending fortifications. Now how long this siege takes actually has a rather substantial impact on how effective the strategy is - if it goes badly it may not be much stronger than the above method. Either way though, there's nothing to be done but wait it out.

Once you have taken Rook's Roost, choose the sell option on the fuel found there, and move into Hlo'Haas as soon as you have 14 infantry. As you get gold, run festivals in Rook's Roost, but if loyalty in either starting province starts dropping near 60, run festivals there so you don't impair production. However, if you accumulate at least 18 infantry including any already paid for and training, cut training to focus more on festivals, starting a new infantry to replace each lost.

When you take Hlo'Haas, wait until you've got 14 infantry and move into Brom. You can cut infantry production here and focus on festivals in Hlo'Haas until you take Brom. Choose the sell option again once you take Brom. Run festivals until you've got all provinces at least over 60. Then save and start a shrine in one of your starting provinces as soon as you have the gold and then in the other as soon you can afford it. Note that you may be able to get loyalty over 60 in all provinces and 1,250 gold before taking Brom. If so, start the first shrine then.

Start your third shrine in Hlo'Haas when funds allow. Then focus income on getting loyalty maxed or close to it in all provinces via festivals. Once you've done that, start infantry production in all provinces to get back up to 1400 asap if you've had heavy attrition, or you've got 1,400 infantry you can start shrines in Rook's Roost and Brom, then get loyalty back up in each of those. Your income should be sufficient to start them soon while maintaining infantry production in any case.

At this point, you're in good shape. It's around turn 30, you've 5 provinces, a shrine built and 4 building (with a couple soon to finish), a decent standing army, high loyalty and a very high income for this part of the game (in my most recent play-test it was +1,333 gold/turn on turn 30). In the demo it makes sense to build taverns as the shrines complete (you've got the gold to do so), but in 1.1 it will probably be markets or barracks instead.

You can do whatever you want from such a position, but the point of all those shrines is that you're now in position to take Trentare and Shroudhaven and have adequate loyalty control. After you've got those two up and running, you're in a pretty much perfect situation to take and pacify Eastgate and Westkeep from Mourngrym. At that point, your income and infantry production will be so great that you can pretty much roll over the rest of the map .

[Velociryx]

Hmmm...the question is (and remains to be seen as you play thru the other factions), have we placed Fury in "too good" a position? If so, it's easy enough to adjust the values of the resources of Rook's Roost and Brom downward...they'll still be good prizes, but that'd be an easy enough way to make the Furies shine a little less.

Looking forward to your analysis of the other groups!

-=Vel=-

[JustinSane]

I haven't played the other factions enough to have a definite opinion, but my impression is that the Fury, Castillar and Mourngrym are all pretty balanced. Each has objectives that are achievable fairly early in the game that place them in a very strong position when the goal is reached.

For the Fury, it's taking Rook's Roost, Brom, Trentare and Stroudhaven with enough shrines to control loyalty in the two large provinces. I'm reasonably confident that refinements in Fury opening play will largely consist of ever more efficient methods of accomplishing the above.

For Castillar, it's absorbing Massetta, then taking and pacifying Eastgate and Westkeep. Now I haven't complete a came with Castillar yet, but in my first play through, as of turn 41, I've taken both and they have an average loyalty of 39 and rising quickly (Castillar shrines rock). So that's a comparable time frame to when I've been able to get Fury's benchmark above hit. Accomplishing that, like accomplishing the Fury objective, leaves you in a dominant position.

For Mourngrym, it's conquering Castillar (though going for the Fury may also be viable, if a bit riskier, as the Castillar AI seems much more aggressive and the risk of a two front war is greater). Again, that's doable pretty early and places you in an easily winning situation.

I've not played as the Council yet, but my impression is that there isn't anything they can do in the first 40 turns that will advance them as far as the stuff the above three factions can do. Now if there is a way to take and pacifying Eastgate and Westkeep early on while not getting pincered between Mourngrym and the Mystics, then I'm wrong and they're fine too. I don't know whether that's possible but I'll certainly give it my best shot when I get to the Council .

The Mystics, IMHO, need help. At best, it seems they can take out the Council relatively early, but even there you've got to sacrifice a lot to hit the time frames Castillar and Mourngrym can hit for absorbing their first opponent. Even if they can pull it off, it's harder for them to get loyalty up in conquered provinces due to their being nearly forced into sigils rather than shrines and their relative lack of income to fund festivals.

One minor change that would help them (at least I think it's minor - I don't know what the coding would entail) would be to make Brom attackable from Bessmer rather than just Hlo'Haas. Then the Mystics could target that early game for a steady 400 gold/turn and should be able to profit from the northern expansion of Vargalas->Bessmer>Brom in time to deal with the council and/or the Fury. I don't know if that would be enough though.

So basically, I don't think Fury is in too strong of the position, and with practice a good player should be able to beat the AI every time from any of the starting positions (not to fault the AI, but it just isn't capable of keeping up with a human without some handicap bonus). But it's harder and takes longer for the Mystics.

[Velociryx]

Help for the Mystics is definitely coming!

And I'm MOST curious to see your thoughts on the Council! (I take it you're neck deep in playing Castillar now, what with the thoughts on them and Massetta, and the strengths of their Shrines).

Great stuff!

-=Vel=-

[JustinSane]

I completely underestimated the Council. I've played out a game with them through turn 59 and have eliminated the Mystics and the Mourngrym (one good solution to the getting pincered problem I suppose - take them both out ).

I didn't even use an overly aggressive build - just build shrines first in Ascaaphol and then in IronPort as I got the gold, ran festivals in Ascaaphol to get loyalty high enough to start pumping infantry, let the new shrines take care of loyalty in IronPort, started pumping infantry from both provinces, and rolled over the Mystics by turn 31. Conquering the Mystics may not be as helpful as taking the Mourngrym or Castillar empires, but if you can get it done by turn 31 with a couple of shrines already place, it's not at all a bad alternative.

As of turn 59 I've got 11 provinces, a standing army of 63 infantry units, 6 shrines (with 3 more building), two taverns and a sigil, which is a pretty robust all around position for that point in the game (at least in my experience).

It looks like (and this is still based on modest experience with the Council and Castillar) that four out of the five are powerful and balanced between each other, though the AI is pretty helpless once you get the game figured out. A difficulty level may be a good idea to add in? Perhaps something like a static +2 loyalty/turn bonus in each AI province and a 20% bonus for gold, mana, influence and espionage? As good as the AI is (and again, great work Solver!), I think it's too complex of a game for it too keep up with an experienced human player without a decent boost.

I can't wait to try 1.1 .