New and Modified Scenarios

[Richard Bruns]

Post your creations here! I´ll start:

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I have altered the Dawn technology so that it is much easier to research all techs, and especially Chariots. This unit now comes at knowledge 1 instead of 3. I also altered the events that tell about the chariots, so that they match the new progression. In addition, I altered the chariot element and unit. Previously, it was less expensive than warriors but not much more powerful. I made them a little more expensive and a lot more powerful, and made a unit consist of 500 elements rather than 2500, so the player can actually build several, as the tutorial suggests.

Finally, I gave the player ten more turns between chariot discovery and the arrival of the huge tribe, and bumped the size of each horde unit down to 750 warrios so the player can actually win, if a couple chariots have been built.

I also made combat less deadly and added a small amount if unit healing, so most fights take 2 turns now instead of happening instantly.

Finally, the population requirement is now 10,000 so the player wins the scenario around turn 60 to 70 by following the instructions. I have playtested it several times, and it is fairly easy to win, although some of the fights can be close calls. I may have missed something, however, so try it out and tell me what you think.

The new file is moddawn1.xml. The enclosed zip file contains this in a folder, as well as a new scenarios.xml that includes a reference to it. Unzip this file in the scenarios folder and let it overwrite the existing scenarios.xml

[Mark_Everson]

Thanks Richard! Sounds really good.

I'll check it out in a few days. (My computer migration and networking are ending up more complicated than I'd hoped, so my Clash time is screwed for the near future.) You might want to email or PM Martin to make sure he knows about this, since fixing Dawn is what he volunteered to do, and we want to avoid wasted effort.

I think the target for Dawn is to make as few as possible stacked tutorial bulletins, and make it winnable about 98% of the time by a first player. It sounds like you're probably reasonably close on the latter.

[Richard Bruns]

Help!

I have been trying to get all of the earth history scenarios to read all of their military, technology, and activity data from the default resource files. That way the game would use consistent data instead of having differrent things in each scenario.

However, I have been comepletely unable to get any of these scenarios to run. There is no error file; the game simply starts loading the scenario but never finishes, no matter how long I wait. I have meticulously checked all of the altered files for missing or erroneous tags, but cannot find anything wrong with the files. I have also made sure that all build orders and unit placements are updated to the new files.

SiegeWars still runs properly, and it even uses the changes I made to the images.xml file. But if I add the:

<files>
  <all/>
</files>

tag to the start of it, then it too will not load, so there must be something wrong in one of those three altered files.

I already discovered that the game does not want to let technology alter the Movement and Mobility numbers of any element. When I tried that I got an error message. I also got error messages if I made mistakes like mismatched image names. But I am not getting anything now, and I can´t find out why.

Can seomebody tell me what is wrong here? I have attached all the altered files, and the problem should reproduce itself if you use these to replace the existing ones.

[Mark_Everson]

Hi Richard, no good deed goes unpunished

I'm at work and only have a few minutes, so I can't speculate on what the problem is. . . It is likely something fairly simple, but who knows. Hopefully Laurent will have some insight as to what might be happening, he has more experience with the xml stuff than I. No pressure there Laurent . And obviously we need to put some kind of diagnostic into the xml load procedure so at least one knows which part it is bombing in, and hopefully more. This could be activated with a command line switch, or we could just have an xml.txt file that reports on what the xml input is doing and includes any errors.

I suggest that you just put this approach aside for the moment and focus on getting a single new scenario to work with an extended tech tree. You could then return to your worthwhile endeavor when we've got a fix and better error diagnosis available.

[Richard Bruns]

Yes, I should have thought of that sooner. The default file I built already has an extended tech tree, so I will try moving all those new files into one scenario.xml file and seeing if they work. But first:

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I got tired of seeing huge numbers attached to all of the military units, so I decided to try and see what combat would be like if thery were all smaller. I started altering the Jericho scenario, giving each element fractional values so that the units were given progressively smaller and smaller values. I wanted to see what happened to combat as a result of this. To keep things as simple as possible, I took away their distance attack and got rid of technology effects.

To make a long story short, I could not tell any difference in the combat system once I balanced the numbers right. If I hadn´t been looking at the numbers, I wouldn´t have known whether my units had 10,000 attack or 1 attack. And the numbers are much easier to read when they are smaller. I think that we should consider making these smaller numbers the standard for Clash in the future.

Take a look at the attached scenario file to see for yourself. Just replace the standard Jericho with it. Or if you want to make the changes yourself, do the following:

Change the warrior element so it has an attack value of 0.001, a defense of 1, armor of 1, no distance attack, and a health of 0.001. Get rid of the tech effects if you want the numbers to look cleaner.

Change its cost to 0.01 food, 0.02 production, and 0.01 services.

Change the Warriors unit so there are 1000 elements in a unit.

Add the MilitaryConstants to the jericho.xml file and change healAfterFight to zero and damageDivider to 10.

Finally, change the powercircle value at the top to 750 so they are the right size.

[Mark_Everson]

Originally posted by Richard Bruns
I got tired of seeing huge numbers attached to all of the military units, so I decided to try and see what combat would be like if thery were all smaller. I started altering the Jericho scenario, giving each element fractional values so that the units were given progressively smaller and smaller values.

Yeah the humongous numbers are tough to read. How about we just scale them in the gui to manageable size? Seems a lot simpler to me than changing the whole system around. For now we could do with a single scale since units are of crudely the same power level over all antiquity. When we make the transition to the modern age we will probably need a different set of derating factors.

Laurent, what do you think? Richard, could you cross-post this in the mil thread?

[Richard Bruns]

Problem Solved

I fixed the xml files; they all load up properly now. The problem was due to a cut and paste error in the Mangonel unit.

The way I discovered this was to add a series of tags with names like <Marker7></Marker7>and look at the messages about "uninteresting tags" as the program loaded up. When it froze between Markers 7 and 8, I knew it was something in the units list. But even then, I was not able to see the error until I had put an unintersting tag between each unit.

Of course, this does not mean I am finished. I still need to do a lot of playtesting and balancing to make the new tech tree work with everything. But there is a problem with that. Neither the requirement nor the obsolete tags seem to be working, which means that every unit in the tech tree shows up on the econ GUI on the second turn, once all the techs become active. Since I am on 600x800 computers and there is no way to scroll the GUI, it is impossible to invest in roads and walls, and anything else in the middle of the GUI list (Reordering gives me all the infrastructure investments at the bottom.)

The attached file contains the Jericho scenario, modified with the new tech tree and units. All you have to do is replace the jericho file, no other changes to the testbed are needed.

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Mark, I don´t like any situation where the GUI shows something different than what is actually three. Altering the system wasn´t much effort, and coder time is IMO better spent on other things. Now that everything is all in one file, I can easily change them around so they all show up as small numbers.

[Martin the Dane]

Just a little note that actually belongs in the econ-GUI thread, but is relevant to the discussion of strength numbers: With the large numbers it is not practical to put strength and cost values in the Econ-GUI. But I don't se any reason why numbers in the GUI should absolutely be the same as in the xml-files.

[LDiCesare]

Attack values could be divided by 500 or 1000 without problem in the files. The figures were initially for 500-man elements, and now they are for 1-man, thus the scale problem. Fixing them in the xml files is the way to go.

[Martin the Dane]

I have a short comment to Richards remake of Dawn:

It has become even more of a race to build those Chariots.

What I'm planing to to is to give the scenario a more lesury pace, making it doable in something like 100-150 turns. The main reason for this is to give the player time to familiarize him/her self with the GUI, and the main consepts of the game. After all that IS the main purpouse of the scenario. I'll post a detailed description soon.

[Mark_Everson]

Re: Problem Solved

Originally posted by Richard Bruns
I fixed the xml files; they all load up properly now. The problem was due to a cut and paste error in the Mangonel unit.

The way I discovered this was to add a series of tags with names like <Marker7></Marker7>and look at the messages about "uninteresting tags" as the program loaded up. When it froze between Markers 7 and 8, I knew it was something in the units list. But even then, I was not able to see the error until I had put an unintersting tag between each unit.

Good idea!

Mark, I don´t like any situation where the GUI shows something different than what is actually three. Altering the system wasn´t much effort, and coder time is IMO better spent on other things. Now that everything is all in one file, I can easily change them around so they all show up as small numbers.

As Laurent said, go ahead and change 'em.

But eventually we will get to modern units and I think we will Need to reduce the numbers in the gui. Otherwise any scale that gives "reasonably" small values for ancient units will give "too big" numbers in modern times. But for now I agree your fix is best.


Martin:

Your plan to calm it down a little sounds good, but don't go overbored . Some people will get frustrated if not enough happens. Probably 100 turns is about right. I think 150 would bore many. At least that's my call, YMMV. Anyone violently disagree?

[Richard Bruns]

I thought I was actually slowing down the attack. Originally, the babarians appeared right after discovering the chariots, but now they come ten turns later. If the player doesn not research Domestication, then the big tribe does not come.

It should be easy to have the player decide the pace of the scenario. Just tell them that discovering horses will trigger all the battles, so if they want to take their time then they can stay away from horses, and if they want to finish fast then they can grab them early. There is currently one only one barb attack that depends on the turn, not the horses.

[Mark_Everson]

Hi Richard, I checked out the new Jericho. I haven't gotten far enough along to see much tech action yet, I'm looking forward to it.

But the fights with all those mobs take Forever. It really detracts from the game. One problem is that a mob shows up basically every turn. So by the time you have reduced the defenders another is bound to be produced, leading to very extended slogging conquest. Of course I am running lean on forces so as to put most of the resources into tech, so that might be part of it.

Also the AI is meant to have more consequential single units, so I think it would help to make the mobs bigger in size if nothing else.

I am puzzled about your comment about not being able to give orders. When I give orders in Jericho there are only twelve total choices in the econ menu. What am I missing?

Anyway, back to tech! Things seem to work fine. I put basically everything into the Food activity since it has the highest leverage (since most people are farming at the start). The economy starts taking off pretty well after 100 turns or so. However I can't build any new military units since Military Tactics never gets above 0. I think you should have some Military activity in there to remedy that.

I got farming up to 5.6 which is quite substantial, and the rest are spread from below 1 to about 2.5.

Looking forward to the next installment!

Cya,

mark

[Richard Bruns]

Originally posted by Mark_Everson
Hi Richard, I checked out the new Jericho. I haven't gotten far enough along to see much tech action yet, I'm looking forward to it.

Sorry for the confusion, but the scenario I posted is meant primarily to be looked at, not played. It is not really balanced for tech growth and a proper game. I am still working on a single tech tree where growth is balanced across all the scenarios without artificially altering the growth rate for each civ. I am almost there, but there will probably be no way to avoid making Dawn tech growth artificially faster.

But the fights with all those mobs take Forever. It really detracts from the game. One problem is that a mob shows up basically every turn. So by the time you have reduced the defenders another is bound to be produced, leading to very extended slogging conquest. Of course I am running lean on forces so as to put most of the resources into tech, so that might be part of it.

This is what is supposed to happen IMO. In order to take out a province capital, you should have to to conquer most of the rest of the province, and then strike with overwhelming force. I never had problems in conquest once I got a good army.

I made the mobs small so that even the smallest civ should be able to build one. They should become obsolete quickly, once the AI learns enough to invest in tech and build Warriors. But I have bumped up the cost and upkeep of units since then.

I am puzzled about your comment about not being able to give orders. When I give orders in Jericho there are only twelve total choices in the econ menu. What am I missing?

Your computer must be acting very differently than mine. When I play this scenario, I get orders to build every single unit in the tech tree, which takes up all of the GUI window at 600x800 resolution. When I hit reorder, I get the orders for technology, education, all of the infrastructure investment, and finally road and wall building. If I add any Activities that the user can invest in, it becomes impossible to invest in roads and walls, no matter how the window is ordered. So I had to take out all the Activities.

But I got the requirements tags working properly, so part of the problem is solved. But playing as Romans gives the same problem, since stuff does not go obsolete. I will add Activites once the GUI and obsolescence are fixed.

As hinted at before, I am in the process of a major reorganization of the files and scenarios. In a few days I will finish, zip up the entire testbed, call it Clash 7.6, and upload it to my website.

[Mark_Everson]

Originally posted by Richard Bruns

I am puzzled about your comment about not being able to give orders. When I give orders in Jericho there are only twelve total choices in the econ menu. What am I missing?

Your computer must be acting very differently than mine. When I play this scenario, I get orders to build every single unit in the tech tree, which takes up all of the GUI window at 600x800 resolution. When I hit reorder, I get the orders for technology, education, all of the infrastructure investment, and finally road and wall building. If I add any Activities that the user can invest in, it becomes impossible to invest in roads and walls, no matter how the window is ordered. So I had to take out all the Activities.

I think the difference may be that I grabbed Only the scenario file, not your technology.xml file. Would this explain the difference?