Map Graphics Thread part III

[Gary Thomas]

Gar,

The tiles are all 120x60, which the program rescales to 80x40. I am not certain why this is - it was in the code I inherited. The tin (or other resource) tile should be 120x60.

Cheers

[axi]

Hmm, personally I don't like Gar's tin so much. I still insist that for minerals, the element name should be provided, inside a bullion of different color and/or shape.

Zn, Fe, Cu, Au at least should have letters on them, because distinguishing the bullions alone is difficult.

As for horses, I would suggest placing just a black horse's head on the map, which is easy to make and distinguishable.

At this point, functionality comes above prettiness.

[Gar]

Axi,
Maybe you can explain what you are thinking? I can't see how a bar of a metallic color with element letters will be more recognizeable/useful than a graphic which attempts to convey an object made of the material representing the letter for the first name of the resource as needed.

At this point, functionality comes above prettiness.

Can you help me understand what this means?


Gary,
I am toying around with more graphics and will have additions tomorrow with 120 x 60 graphics. How is it best I get these to you? Put them on my site or?

[Mark_Everson]

Hi All:

The tiles are all 120x60, which the program rescales to 80x40. I am not certain why this is - it was in the code I inherited.

My old code, as in demo 4, used 120x60 tiles that were zoomed in the code to become any of a variety of sizes, one of which was 80x40. If we don't end up using the 120x60 size for anything, we should do things going forward in the resolution in which it will be shown to the player since the quality of what the player sees will then be vastly improved. Now that the xml image specification is in there, it would be relatively easy to put in a tag that says if an image is based on 120 width or 80-width graphics. We could then slowly migrate to the preferred size using mixed tiles for the next several demos. Does this make sense to everyone? Gary, how much work would it be? Seems not much to me, but you're the one there on the ground.

The bullion-with-chemical-symbol doesn't do anything for me either, why are you insisting Axi? I realize that using T for tin is Anglocentric, but using Fe for iron will mean absolutely nothing to anyone who hasn't taken chemistry... I also think the ingots will say a little more to the player than a pile of bullion, YMMV.

Gar, I checked out your demo site again and saw the dress and horse images. If you were just trying out sizing and aren't worried about refinements yet then you can ignore what's below. As they are, I think they would gain from more color and highlights. FE Fiera did a pretty credible horse as part of the chariot icon that you might want to take a look at.

[Gar]

I'll go back and revisit the images with more highlights and try the horse model rotated more when I render it. I've also realized I had the output scaling goofed in my renderer such that the widths of the images are 75% of what they should be. I will look for what Fiera had on a horse. But I haven't been freehand sketching these, and the horse 3d model is pretty robust just need to nail the coloration and rotation I think.

Ah, the anglo-centric comment! Got it. I missed the whole internationalization angle. I'll try to factor that in.

[colorrr]

The tin looks really nice.

I like better using only one tin can, instead of forming a T with several of them, the tin can details get lost when the cans are so small. If the letters are desired, maybe it would be better to just use normal letters with the color being the same as the resource color.
I also think the image is a little too dominant in the map square. Could it be smaller?

Dunno if my opinions will make any difference, I get the impression you guys already finished these discussions.

[Gary Thomas]

I am very strongly against the notion of forming symbols into English language intitials. In any case the symbol for tin is Sn, not T.

I have gone to some trouble to keep the door open for internationalization of Clash. I would not like to shut that door in this uunnecessary way.

In a similar vein, I do not feel that using the physics symbols for the elements is productive. The squares are too small to read text anyway. Also, that is imposing an ethno-centric limitation on the art. We would need different tiles for Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Arabic, and so forth.

Cheers

[axi]

My main qualm is that the "ingot T" is not visible enough. Also remember that ingots of other metals will be hard to distingush and it will also be difficult to create the correct initials. What if tin looks good and iron doesn't?

Gar, whenever you update your page, please post a warning inside one of your posts.

[Gar]

OK, this sounds like a good set of ideas with which to work. Sorry, Gary, being new to this the internationalization angle was lost on me.

I think very recognizeable images will go furthest. I will also make contrasts and bright highlights a priority. We can see how these work with a goodly set...

For Tin:
The tin can with a jagged partially open lid
For Cloth:
A pretty colored dress
For Gold:
A Sun shaped medallion with chain
For Silver:
A shiny tea pot
For Salt:
A pile of spilled salt
For Copper:
A copper cook pot
For Iron:
An anvil
Horse:
Horse
Fish:
Fish
Game:
Pheasant
Metalwares?:
knife, fork & spoon
Special Evil Bunny :
Evil Bunny picture

One question, does the double yellow & black border look useful?

I've been kinda updating the site as I go, but will wait til I have stuff ready for critique and update post here at such times; or on the econ thread if it is related to that.:

[Mark_Everson]

I think the yellow-black double border does help draw attention to the figure. I guess I'd need to see it in action with several examples to be more certain, but it seems a good start!

I have an objection to FE using a tin can for tin... Specifically a tin can is a nineteenth century object, and I suspect it will bother people to have it showing up representing tin in ancient times. Also similar types of cans are made with steel and aluminum nowadays, perhaps leading to confusion. I've got similar objections to the tea pot. All the others seem reasonable.

Then again taking things eliminated by Gary's, Axi's and my dislikes, we may not have anything good left

Just a thought... Since the importance of tin is in creating bronze we could use a bronze sword or something for tin. Of course this does leave us open to the criticism that nobody makes swords out of tin, but at least it would make clear why tin is important. If we were to use a coin for gold, then the medallion idea could be used for silver.

[Gary Thomas]

Personally I do not think that identifying the resource from an icon is important, as long as it makes clear that there is a resource present. Then clicking on the square will give the details in the details frame. On this basis, a mine entrance would just about do it.

I certainly don't think that a tin can conveys the idea of the use of tin which, as Mark says, was most important as an ingredient of bronze (when alloyed with copper). Even in more recent times I believe the most important use was in making solder (alloyed with lead).

Cheers

[Gar]

I've just updated the site with new images.

When something works, it really works. I tried out Gary's suggestion about Mines, and I'm convinced. I have a hard time imagining doing anything else, now. They work for immersion, I think the colored lumps are recognizeable enough. Now the challenge for the non-animal ones will be to make other images that integrate into the map.

I've made useable 120x60s of these linked on the site, and introduced naming convention. The resource files are named:
RES_resourcename.gif

After wandering through the JAR file, thinking similar conventions might be useful for all other graphics?

Now my mind is churning for other resources...
Metalworks - a smithy
Cloth - A loom and/or spinning wheel
Salt - a dry lake bed type salt mine with a pile of salt (may add this tonight)

I'll wait on the other two, but dying to see if I can make the salt one look right.

[Mark_Everson]

Originally posted by Gary Thomas
Personally I do not think that identifying the resource from an icon is important, as long as it makes clear that there is a resource present. Then clicking on the square will give the details in the details frame. On this basis, a mine entrance would just about do it.

Hey Gary:

I consider needing to click on a square to see which type of mined resource is present to be unacceptable. Are we going to make the player click all over the map to find the tin that they need? There are certainly alternatives, like having a resource locator, or dedicated resource map, in which what is where is indicated in some direct fashion. But they will not be available for quite some time I expect, so putting identifiable icons on the main map is important at least for now IMO.

Hi Gar:

While I think the mine-with-lumps concept might work, IMO the present demo versions from your web site at 80x40 will be virtually indistinguishable once put on a map with different colors and units on it. I can see players cursing and squinting, at least with the current versions. I think the color or shape needs to be unique enough for people to see immediately as they glance over the map. For that reason I still prefere the older concept of unique images. But if I'm the only one that things the mine approach doesn't work I'll just have to grin and bear it .

[colorrr]

The mine entrances look much better!
I like the idea of distinguishing between the mines with different coloured lumps outside it.
How about making an icon like the a mine entrance? You know, two horizontal wooden poles with one wooden pole above, and coloring the opening with the color of the metal. That would make the difference between various metal stand out more, but the concept (mine) would still be recognizeable. Another idea would be to fill the entrance with bigger lumps of the metal.

The gold medallion I did not like, maybe just a mine with gold would be better.

Another idea is having a spoon like the ones used in forgerys to contain melted metal that is poured down into a pool. The pool and the metal flow would have the color that differentiates the different metals.

Color

[Gar]

I tried to go back as primitive as I could on these, which is why I skipped even the classic wooden beam mine entrance part. There is in general something to maintaining the visual integrity of the map.

I may have been overly convinced. One key piece of data I'm missing is the relative density of resources; as in, what percent of squares will have a special resource? This is important, imo, in what sort of graphics is needed.

Also, is fog of war an overlay or does that need two versions of a resources (dark & light) or will resources remain bright in fog areas?

Once I know the density I will put together a map screen with resources distributed to how it looks, or these could roll into a demo?

Still wide open to arguments any way, and I don't mind trying various variations.