Java Game Programming

[colorrr]

Originally posted by DJ
I wouldn't be too excited about the Java updates. I'd suggest you guys look into C# and the .NET framework. It's like Java, but bigger and better! Plus,with the .NET framework, it'll allow you to take different blocks of many other types of code languages, and compile them into one. Really, I think Java needs to do more than come up with small updates if they want to keep up.

...Post edited by author to remove unneccesary comments...

What do you know about Java? Did you finish any Java course or do you have sufficient experience to evaluate the language?
To help you answer I quote one of your earlier posts:

think i'll stick with C/C++ after my Java classes are over.

And how about C#, how much experience do you have programming with that?
Again to jog your memory I quote one of your earlier posts:

Anyways, I dont' have any solid views on C# or .NET as of yet, I'm really hoping to try them one day, just out of curiousity.

Tell me honestly, do you feel your experience in these languages qualify your opinion to be taken seriously by anyone????

On second thought, don't answer that . . .

You should really start thinking about what you say before you put oh so-secure opinion up here.

So which one is best of Java and C#? Would anyone with solid experience with both care to give their judgement?
No-one here have yet I guess.
So lets just leave that discussion behind, it really does not serve this project well.

You call the upgrade small, I would not call implementing high performance graphics routines that draws directly to the screen a small update. It opens up a new world of graphic possibilites, like the full-screen capability.
In my opinion it will change the way many people writing games look at Java, and you consider that a small upgrade?
For me that qualifies it as an important upgrade.

[DJ]

What are you??? Some 12 year old punk kid?

Anyways:
I wouldn't be too excited about the Java updates. I'd suggest you guys look into C# and the .NET framework. It's like Java, but bigger and better! Plus,with the .NET framework, it'll allow you to take different blocks of many other types of code languages, and compile them into one. Really, I think Java needs to do more than come up with small updates if they want to keep up. C# from what i read features the best of both worlds and should excite you Java programmers who will now get the best of Java and the power of C++. I just thought that was great to know.

I still don't have solid views on C# though, simply because i haven't tried it out yet! But Feb 13 Microsoft is releasing Visual C++.NET so I'm gonna finally get to try this language that has been talked about for the last few years. Wow, has it been that long???

[RonHiler]

Originally posted by colorrr
I would not call implementing high performance graphics routines that draws directly to the screen a small update. It opens up a new world of graphic possibilites, like the full-screen capability.

That's interesting. Does it allow use of hardware acceleration as well, ala D3D or OGL?

I personally don't know much about Java as a development platform, so I won't make any comments on that front. I'd like to learn Java, once I have the time (which will be never at the rate MD is being done, heh).

I do object to the somewhat irrational fear some of you seem to have of pointers, though. Calling them evil is a little bit silly They are not evil. They are a tool. A very powerful one, in fact. In C, they are probably the most powerful concept in the language (not in C++ mind you, I'm only talking about C here). Like any powerful tool, they can be misused. Fire can kill, but it was undoubtedly early man's greatest friend when controlled and used properly. Pointers are the same way. I would say, IMO, that if you don't know how to properly use pointers, you cannot be more than a beginning C programmer. To become proficient with C, you *must* use them. To become advanced, you must use them as second nature, as easily as you would an integer or float variable.

Gary, your comment about run-time versus compile time errors reminded me of an intersting thing. When C first arrived on the scene ('85 or so?), the exact same thing was said about it versus BASIC, pascal, and fortran. Of course, it was absolutely true I don't doubt that Java improves upon this concept even more.

Ron

[Mark_Everson]

colorrr and DJ!

Gentlemen, Please keep the tone civil or I may be forced to shut down this thread. Flame wars do not help to move along this discussion in any way. If you must taunt each other, find some other way to do it!

The Management


Hi Ron:

Well, I'm just not a very good programmer, nor will I ever be (lack of driving interest and effort) so Java's safety features like the memory-allocation stuff are ideal for me. As I've said they keep me from shooting my own foot off

[colorrr]

Originally posted by RonHiler

That's interesting. Does it allow use of hardware acceleration as well, ala D3D or OGL?

Ron

The java specs state that it is similar to working with DirectX on a Microsoft Windows platform or SunTM OpenGL® for SolarisTM.

Not sure if that answers your question though.

[Gary Thomas]

I come from way back, and, scratch the surface, you find a die-hard assembler programmer.

Now, for power, speed, and great tricks that beats the lot of them. Of course you have to know what you are doing, but after a while it becomes second nature. Assembly language has pointers too, although they called them indirect addresses. In a sense they were easier to manage than in higher level languages, because you knew exactly what they were and where they were.

The problem was that after I had finished writing my spectacular assembly language programs, it was difficult to impossible to find someone to maintain them. This is also the problem with C.

It is my experiance that about 80% of programming consists of fixing or modifying existing code. And that is what 80% of programmers do. Unromantic, prosaic, and often downright boring, but, hey! most programmers have to function in the real world. And this is the point at which Java stars!

When I have to fix some absolutely abysmal code written by a somewhat retarded dormouse, I at least can be confident that they haven't left any orphan pointers around. Though they can still have memory leaks, they are somewhat harder to create (one way is to have object A have a reference to object B which has a reference to object C which has a reference to object B, when A goes out of range and is collected, with the reference to B removed, B and C hang around in a tight little incestuous relationship forever).

Incidentally, Java does have pointers - every object reference is a pointer. What it doesn't have is pointer arithmetic, and that little extra it does have is garbage collection.

Cheers

[F_Smith]

Would anyone with solid experience with both care to give their judgement?


I've actually used the VisualStudio.NET beta. It's alright. Has a lot of little problems, tho. But it's got some nice stuff, too. I agree with the quote from earlier, "C# is Java with the reliability, security and cross-platform removed".

One small detail -- switch statements use strings. Nice. And it's pass by value, which is good. Altho it hasn't got a 'throws' for error handling. I don't like that. It does still allow using native pointers, which I think is a mistake. And of course it's Windows-only, which means I'll only play with it. But there is the 'Mono' project out there, trying to make a Linux version. So we'll see.

That's interesting. Does it allow use of hardware acceleration as well, ala D3D or OGL?


The new Java 1.4 release does use hardware acceleration by default. It uses any available hardware acceleration for *all* screen draws, from simple GUI controls on up.


I would not call implementing high performance graphics routines that draws directly to the screen a small update.


There's also a new Fast FileIO library, top-notch encryption, and about a million other small but significant inclusions. I've been using the beta since June. It's sweet.

One small detail it allows is the ability to define what text goes in the gray box when loading an applet. And the 'java console' is now a task-bar icon that is always available, and applets now write printlns to the java console. And . . . aw, heck, there's a bunch.

One other thing I'd like to mention again, that the 1.4 release has a very fine version of, is the 'Java Web Start'. I think it could really revolutionize the work ya'll are doing here, since it automatically updates you application from the web just like an applet.

Install the 1.4 on your machine, then click the 'Java Web Start' icon and see how it works. I think that might really be a good tool for ya'll.

[Gary Thomas]

One small detail -- switch statements use strings. Nice.

Is that to encourage people to write those awful windows style message managers? Personally I don't use switch statements at all. Where I need that funcionality I subclass.

And it's pass by value, which is good.

All Java primitives are pass by value. Does C# pass non-primitives by value?

Cheers

[Mark_Everson]

Another interesting link:

Evaluating Java for Game Development

[Gary Thomas]

Does not seem to have much in the way of insights. The author apparently doesn't know that polymorphism replaces, and improves on, the enums from C++. Similarly he makes no mention of the power of interfaces, which replace multiple inheritance, without the pitfalls of the latter.

Cheers