Map Graphics

[Fiera]

quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson on 03-27-2001 10:42 PM Personally I think Fiera's stuff is really good, and am not worried about trying to do refinements yet. We really only need 4 units for demo 5, and we basically have them now, at least close to the level we'll need them at. (I hope that's ok with you Fiera )

Yes, it's absolutely OK with me, but which are these 4 units? I assume the Horde, the Phalanx, the Light Horse unit and a Trirreme? If so, I still want to improve the Horsemen unit a bit before it's ready for making it into the demo.

quote: Another thing to try is a massed battle with a front as occurred in WWII. This will put lots of TFs from each side together, and we need to be sure our overall spec can handle that situation.

I'm not sure I understand you here. You mean a long line of squares with two Task Forces inside each of them, or you mean that some squares are going to have more than TFs fighting within?

quote: What does everyone think about this proposal for how to proceed? I'm sure I've missed some things, but I think its the right general direction to go in...

Yes, I too think that's the right general direction to go, but I think we must set the different sizes of PCs that we want to have. I have no problem to work on that, and I think I finally understood what you wanted. A set of six circles, with a diameter of 9 pixels for the first one, a diameter of 12 for the second, 15 for the third, and so on until the sixth one wich will have a diameter of 27 pixels, will be fine, I guess. But they've to be drawn, and we have to see if we can really tell them apart from each other.

quote: Like I said above, I think the battle with reduced/silouette units basically works. But IMO its not quite exciting enough. Maybe something as simple as showing the TFs each in the respective player's colors would work. I just have the general feeling that guys in potential combat should be more exciting than what you have now. But I give you credit that the basic idea works! And I think with some refinement it will do quite well.

Well, I've made a mix of both ideas: now they're shown in the player's color, but still have black borders so the final result is not too confusing. I think you'll find it better this way. Check it out here:
http://www.geocities.com/fiera_com/graphics.html

As for making the battle more "exciting", we can always use animated gifs, as in Civ2. Whenever a unit attacked an enemy unit, there was something like an animated "dust cloud". Some authors improved this animation and got very nice results. We could something as two lightnings colliding, or something, which went together well with the concept of "Clash of Civilizations". If you like the idea, I can try to put together a demo.

quote: BTW those ships are great. I think our ships may need to be a little smaller compared to our tile size because of the need to show the power circle. Perhaps we could use that guy's ships directly if he doesn't mind and if they look ok next to your TFs... What do you think?

Well, I know Bernd and I think he wouldn't mind giving us permission to use some of his ships. Maybe we could take one ofthe Trirremes for the demo. However, I again think those ships have too much Civ2 flavour to be our final graphics. Bernd is well known for making graphics that fit perfectly with the original Civ2 units. Furthermore, those graphics are limited to the Civ2 palette, while we can design new and even more atractive units with a wider range of colors.

As for how they'll deal with the PCs, maybe we should throw away that kind of isometric perspective, that tends to "fill" the tile and try with a more "frontal" view, as in the Tank I've used for the demos and in my Chariot graphic.

quote: If PCs are color coded for size I think we'd lose something. I think its important for the player to see the map colored in their color.

This has reminded me of one question I have: are the PCs going to be "rings", as I am currently making them, or are they going to be filled circles?

[Mark_Everson]

Hi Fiera:

I had initially listed a different 4 units, but the ones you state should work OK. I will encourage Laurent to come by this thread, since he knows best what TF icons are most important for where he envisions taking the military model in the near future. On the world war II thing what I had in mind was something like a double line of squares (as will frequently happen with an angled front) with two task forces inside each of them. That is just to make sure that things don't look incredibly congested under those circumstances.

On PC sizes, I at least had never intended to really have them be in discreet steps, but to vary in a continuous range generated by the computer. Now in practice, people will only be able to really distinguish about six size scales unless the circles are right on top of each other. That's where my comment about six sizes came from. It may be that the computer-generated ellipses will be too ugly, in which case we may return to your hand-made circles idea. Sorry I wasn't explicit before.

I like the colors with black borders pretty well! I think the horde unit looks really good in the color, although the chariot looks a little weird with that big expanse of red in the middle. You can try the animation demos if you like, but I have to tell you that I am almost certain not to like it, because I really don't like animations of any sort in my strategy games. I am too easily distracted by such things, and I Always shut them off . But just because I don't like it doesn't mean our players won't. I think what you tried worked well enough that we can be fairly sure that something of the sort will work. What does everyone think?

Guess, I agree we should probably stick with a more frontal view as you've established so far in the graphics.

I think it's pretty clear PCs are going to be rings. I did some experiments with demo 4,and for fairly zoomed-in graphics filled circles look really strange. You can try it yourself if you like, and see what you think. However, as you get down to around 30 or less pixels across the tile, it starts to look good with filled circles. And that lower resolutions I showed just the circles, which is about all you can do anyway. So I'm fairly sure that what I've outlined is a good way to go if we keep the power circles.

[Fiera]

quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson on 03-28-2001 07:21 PM I had initially listed a different 4 units, but the ones you state should work OK. I will encourage Laurent to come by this thread, since he knows best what TF icons are most important for where he envisions taking the military model in the near future.

It's alright for me either way. Maybe you were planning a light spearmen unit, as in Demo4? There's no problem for me, I can try and draw it if you like, as well as anything else you planned to include in the new demo.

quote: On the world war II thing what I had in mind was something like a double line of squares (as will frequently happen with an angled front) with two task forces inside each of them. That is just to make sure that things don't look incredibly congested under those circumstances.

OK, I'll work on it. Something like, say, 8 squares will be alright?

quote: On PC sizes, I at least had never intended to really have them be in discreet steps, but to vary in a continuous range generated by the computer. Now in practice, people will only be able to really distinguish about six size scales unless the circles are right on top of each other. That's where my comment about six sizes came from. It may be that the computer-generated ellipses will be too ugly, in which case we may return to your hand-made circles idea. Sorry I wasn't explicit before.

Ah, good then. It's relieving knowing that the PCs are going to be generated by the computer, I was beginning to go mad trying to draw them!

quote: I like the colors with black borders pretty well! I think the horde unit looks really good in the color, although the chariot looks a little weird with that big expanse of red in the middle.

Look at the pic #15 at my ]graphics page. More black and less red.

quote: You can try the animation demos if you like, but I have to tell you that I am almost certain not to like it, because I really don't like animations of any sort in my strategy games. I am too easily distracted by such things, and I Always shut them off . But just because I don't like it doesn't mean our players won't. I think what you tried worked well enough that we can be fairly sure that something of the sort will work. What does everyone think?

I'm not particulary fond of animations either, I just suggested them just in case you didn't find the battle demo exciting enough. Now I've come up with a very simple effect (pic #16): what if the units blinked whenever they were receiving damage? That way you'd have a visual and quick perception on who's winning and who's losing the battle. However, as I don't fully understand the military system you're implementing, this might be out of place. Just a suggestion.

quote: I think it's pretty clear PCs are going to be rings. I did some experiments with demo 4,and for fairly zoomed-in graphics filled circles look really strange. You can try it yourself if you like, and see what you think. However, as you get down to around 30 or less pixels across the tile, it starts to look good with filled circles. And that lower resolutions I showed just the circles, which is about all you can do anyway. So I'm fairly sure that what I've outlined is a good way to go if we keep the power circles.

I like the rings better for higher resolutions too.

[Mark_Everson]

On the spear man, etc. hopefully Laurent will show up here soon and give his opinions. Why don't you wait until we hear from him before starting on a spear man. He may have some things in mind already that I don't know about.

On world war II, something like eight squares should work OK I think. I like your new approach to the chariot unit, but the problem I foresee is it can't be done in as automated fashion as the previous type. The beauty of what you had before is that the computer could do it automatically at what ever size scale is needed. But it would be way too much work to have it smart enough to outline the horses correctly. And if we can't do it automatically, then it's a bunch more work for you, since you need to do it for several different reduced sizes.

[Richard Bruns]

I'm afraid that I really don't like the colored silhouette and the blinking. If you include it, please let the player turn it off. I think that if we want to put two armies in the same square, there should be an option to do it with the small icons.

How will the pictures be put into the game? Will there be an editor, or will it be a formatted file like in Civ2? I've come to like my plan for units, and I'd like the option to put them in and play with them. There is nothing wrong with Fiera's units; I simply like the density of information that the small icons give. I can see the entire composition of the unit, and it allows many, many possible units to be built.

[Fiera]

Hmm... exactly how much zoomed-in views do you plan to implement? Maybe if we reduced to, say, three views (default, a medium view and a smaller, strategic view).

Also, what did you think of the blinking animations?

[Mark_Everson]

quote: Originally posted by Richard Bruns on 03-28-2001 10:26 PM I'm afraid that I really don't like the colored silhouette and the blinking. If you include it, please let the player turn it off. I think that if we want to put two armies in the same square, there should be an option to do it with the small icons.

Well, can you give a demo of what you think the two-armies thing should look like? Options are right now maybes for the future. Once we get all the important stuff implemented a single way, then we'll look at options. Of course, if you want to do the mods yourself, it can happen much faster . It shouldn't be that much work though, maybe 5 hours or so, to implement your option. Unless of course there are unforseen complications.

quote: How will the pictures be put into the game? Will there be an editor, or will it be a formatted file like in Civ2?

Don't know. Right now the image files are read in individually. Specs relating to them (image size, offsets, etc.) are hard-coded currently. At a minimum we will allow specs to be entered from an editor or ini file. A dedicated graphics editor is way beyond anything I'm thinking of, and would frankly IMO be a waste of resources.

quote: I've come to like my plan for units, and I'd like the option to put them in and play with them. There is nothing wrong with Fiera's units; I simply like the density of information that the small icons give. I can see the entire composition of the unit, and it allows many, many possible units to be built.

As I said about options above. Of course if the current plan has some catastrophic failure in playtesting then we'll have to assign a new main option. But for now I'm very confident the current first-string model will work.

Fiera:

Zoomed-in views... Lots are possible, but we could certainly work with about three main ones. Others could just be supported by scaling with a loss of beauty in the graphics.

Blinking: Same as all animations, I would turn them off But something that happens during turn execution to show battle progress is a good idea, and I'm sure we'll try to follow up on it at least as an option sometime in the future.

[edit, insert text below]

I am going to be working on the military unit renderers, PC and TFBox stuff this weekend. (They need to be moved over to the new code from the d4 old style architecture.

Can you send me the gifs you have now by email? markeverson@mediaone.net
Please make sure they have transparent backgrounds... They don't have to be final versions, just for me to have real units to play with while I get things set up. I'll send you a screen shot when it gets to the point where it doesn't look Ghastly .


[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited March 29, 2001).]

[LDiCesare]

A fast comment for lack of time (ISP problems ).
The units that are currently "coded" are: horde, phalanx, light cavalry, trireme. There is also a warrior which could be militia-like. The next thing I'd like to put in are "artillery", that is either archers, slingers or catapults. I don't know what makes most sense in terms of archaic warfare. I know archery became powerful with composite bows which were used by mounted archers very early in history, so maybe a mounted archer could be a possibility. Catapults could be nice to design, too, so if you feel inspired, Fiera, go ahead with them.
(If you make a really terrific-looking unit, I might even try to give it extra strength )
As for ships, I stopped implementing naval wars and concentrated on ground combat so that is not a priority.

[Richard Bruns]

quote: Well, can you give a demo of what you think the two-armies thing should look like?

Done. I can put a four-civ fracas in one square with no overlap. This picture shows a front with four sides. Red and Purple are allies, as are Blue and Green:

Ideally, each TF icon would be inside a translucent gray square or something similar. That would make them easier to distunguish. While I have 2 icons in each TF display in the battle zones, we could use one instead. That one would be the icon representation of the large unit that normally appears.

I think that making the power bar move down as the unit takes damage is good enough as an indication that there is a battle. Maybe the power bar could blink as it fell; that could be less obtrusive.

quote: Of course, if you want to do the mods yourself, it can happen much faster.

That was my plan. As long as I don't have to alter the code, I'll be happy.
[This message has been edited by Richard Bruns (edited March 29, 2001).]

[Mark_Everson]

Well, I have to admit that the four sides in one square demo Is impressive . You've increased my interest in eventually doing it . Lets see what others think on the general motif as an option.

BTW I was talking about 5 hrs of Programming needed .

[Fiera]

I have made a demo to show how a large front, as in ww2, will look like, only thing is I had to make it with ancient units...

It's here: www.geocities.com/fiera_com/graphics.html

I think the result is not too confusing. Note, however, that two large icons (ie, two chariot icons) have some problems to fit together well into one square. The view of the icons over mountain terrain is not particulary good, that's one thing to have in mind too.

Mark, I'll send you that e-mail, with either the basic icons for Horde, Phalanx and Light Cavalry and their "silhouettes". LDiCesare said he had coded a warrior/militia unit and a trireme unit too, so I guess I should work on those icons now... I think I'll be able to send them to you tomorrow...

Is this OK with you? Is there anything else you need that I may be forgetting of?

[Mark_Everson]

Looks good! For two big icons I think they just need to be shrunk a bit more.

I think you'll provide me with what I need at least for the next few weeks. Its going to take a bit to hook up everyting in the new architecture.

[Richard Bruns]

I have experimented with making the land behind the units grayscaled to make the icons appear better. It is image number 7 on my website. Could this be programmed easily?

Mark, do you want me to e-mail you the alternate units and components?

[Mark_Everson]

Hi Richard. I realistically won't be doing anything with your style stuff for at least several weeks. I'm just snowed getting what was already in d4 functional in the new architecture. So you can send 'em, if you're not going to be disappointed if they don't show up for quite some time. I sure hope we can get someone who wants to do graphical programming! I don't really enjoy it, but its gotta be done. Hopefully one of the new recruits will take it over...

[Mark_Everson]

Initial Graphics test. I have no artistic capacity, so the only art demos I can generate are thru software It ain't much, but its a start. The placement within the tile isn't right, but that's easy to fix.



The tiles are scaled to 80 across... so once I do it right it should be fairly similar to the demo stuff.

See Fiera, I try to give immediate gratification where possible .
Can you express an approach for getting the TF sprites placed right? If the image is w pixels wide, and h high, and if the tile has W and H, how should I do the math to figure where the image goes with respect to the tile? It is close to TF image center goes over top vertex of the tile. Can you give me a shot at what the right approach is? I know it may just be intuitive, but it would help if you can formulate it...

[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited April 06, 2001).]