Wonders and Achievements

[Lord God Jinnai]

Here's the model as it currently stands. Do not post this on the board yet cuz I'm not in charge and I sent a copy to Chris who is in charge so he has the final say.
-----
Wonders and Other Great Achievements Model

1.0 - Introduction
2.0 - Groups
2.1 - Man-Made Structures
2.2 - Natural Structures
2.3 - Projects
2.4 - Items
2.5 - Ruins
3.0 - Effects
3.1 - Multiplier Factor
1.1 Before I continue I must want to say that the this model will not limit the number of wonders to
the number 7 as has been done in our world historically. Also many things that might have made it
to the "wonder" status never have because there was that limit of 7 and some things were just slightly
better.

2.0 There are 4 groups that will be listed here in the wonder model: Man-made Structures, Natural
Structures, Projects and Items.

2.1 Man-Made Structures: These are buildings, monuments and other great achievements created
by the human race. These are not things like Magellan's Expedition or the Apollo Program. Those
are Projects. There are various levels of status for Man-Made Structures which will be listed
below. The effects of Man-Made Structures changes over time and its effects can, if it isnft of
enough status, disappear.

Man-Made Structures Status Chart

Level Base %
Chance Max %
Chance Length
of Effect Length of Effect
Multiplier
Ordinary 98 N/A N/A N/A
Feat 1 50 2 1
Achievement .55 27.5 2 2
Monument .35 17.5 3 3
Wonder .15 7.5 5 4
Grand Wonder .05 2.5 5 5


Level: Various levels of structures. Ordinary being the lowest level, Grand Wonder being highest.
In order to build anything beyond Ordinary level the player must invest extra resources into its
construction.

Base % Chance: This represents the chance of building a type of structure with just the minimal
amount extra put into construction of the Man-Made Structures. The minimal extra is 100.01%
times the standard cost, rounded up to the nearest integer. If the player wishes to spend more then
the chance of a higher level increases at the expense of the Ordinary level. The gWonderh levels
double in chance every 1% for a maximum of 50% extra at which point it equals Max % Chance
column.

Max % Chance: This is the absolute highest possibility of creating a certain gWonderh level (with
the exception of the character model getting involved). The player must spend 150% of the normal
cost of a structure to get the chance. Any additional money is wasted. This is so that it allows
players to create grander structures while still keeping game balance by not having tons of wonders.
This also represents how things are viewed in reality. Just because something is more grand doesnft
mean everyone will think it is extremely wonderful. Also spending more money doesnft always
increase the chance of a more artistic designs.

Max Length of Effects: This is the length of time the structure adds bonuses to the area (the area
can vary). The numbers represent the levels from Immediate to Extremely Long Range. These
ranges will be discussed below.

Length of Effect Multiplier: The Length of Effect Levels are in turns. This column represents how
long each one is multiplied by in turns. This, too, will be explained below.

2.2 Natural Structures: Natural Structures are creations of nature known for either their size, beauty
or power. They are much more rare than Man-Made Structures which can be almost constantly
built. Instead, when a map is created Natural Structures are randomly placed around the map in
appropriate locations. These places will be hidden from the player and computer civs until several
turns after conquering and holding that square. Also social conditions must be favorable for this to
happen otherwise people will overlook it if they have the idea gman must dominate nature.h Just as
in Man-Made Structures there are various levels for Natural Structures, though not as many.

Natural Structures Status Chart

Level Number Appearing Effect Multiplier
Achievement 1:4480 1
Monument 1:9600 2
Wonder 1:22 400 3


Level: Various levels of Natural Structures, Achievement being the lowest and Wonder being the
highest.

Number Appearing: This is the ratio for determining how many Natural Structures are on a
particular world based on the total number of tiles. This is to keep things balanced regardless of the
map size. If there is any extra tiles that donft equal another Natural Structure then those tiles are
disregarded. This ratio is based on the standard tile size of 100x100km.

Effect Multiplier: This is how much the relative effects of the Natural Structurefs Effects on the
area are multiplied by. This will be explained in more detail below.

2.3 Projects are revolutionary or extraordinary events, ideas or creations that reshape the way we
think of certain things or enormous feats that were previously never done because it was considered
to risky. Unlike any other type of achievement, many Projects require international help do to either
the sheer size of the tasks or the very nature of the Projects themselves. A few, such as being the
first to circumnavigate the globe, could be done by only one nation though.

Projects Status Chart

Level Min %
Failure Base %
Chance Max %
Chance Length
of Effect Length of Effect
Multiplier
Achievement 1 70 5 2 1
Undertaking 5 25 20 3 2
Project 15 4.5 50 5 3
Massive Project 25 .5 25 5 5


Level: Various levels of the Projects, Achievement being the lowest and Massive Project being the
highest. This represents importance of things such as mapping of human genes and first person to
successfully travel around the globe by a certain means have different impacts.

Min % Failure: This is the absolute best case scenario of a chance of success in attempting a given
Project. The player/Computer AI will not know the actual chance of failure (although they may be
able to get the relative, ie small or great) nor the Level. This is so they canft do much in the way of
number crunching to get the best results. Some things that will increase the risk of failure are:
spending less resources, attempting any Project on your own, adverse social conditions, etc..

Base % Chance: This is the base % chance of whatever Project is undertaken will be viewed by the
populous as. Several factors will way on the actual percentage. Ifm not sure quite how to do this
yet, but social conditions as well as advertisement and extra resources spent (perhaps this could be
part of the advertising?) so long as its not wasted would yield better results. The character model will
also help/hinder on this account.

Max % Chance: This is the absolute highest possibility of creating a certain level of Project (with
the exception of the character model getting involved). In order to have this high of level the project
cannot be a secret and has to have other nations and corporations involved as well some, if not all of
the things mentioned in Base % Chance.

Max Length of Effects: This is the length of time the structure adds bonuses to the area (the area
can vary). The numbers represent the levels from Immediate to Extremely Long Range. These
ranges will be discussed below.

Length of Effect Multiplier: The Length of Effect Levels are in turns. This column represents how
long each one is multiplied by in turns. This, too, will be explained below.

2.4 Items are similar in effect to Man-Made Structures, however there is a key difference. Items
are easily portable, Man-Made Structures, are well self explanatory. There are other smaller
differences, but that is the key point. Right now Ifm not sure if this model should handle Items or if
it should be left to the character model. The reason Ifm putting it here is because the same basic
principles that govern the creation and use of Man-Made Structures do so also with Items. Most
(about 90% Ifm thinking) of Items will be related to one of the Arts. The others will be historic or
have other purposes. Also about 30-60% will be religious in origin. Also Items can be stolen or
bought (however at set prices, varying on inflation).

Items Chart

Level Min % Chance Max % Chance Base % Creation Length of Effect
Multiplier
Achievement 80 10
Masterpiece 17.5 15
Artifact 2.45 50
Relic .05 25


Level: Various levels of what an item can be. From Achievement at the bottom to Relic status at
the best. These represent the different levels of importance to the populous. Something like the
Excalibur would be more important Hope Diamond. Items cannot be directly controlled by the
player. That is probably the only other major difference between Items and Man-Made Structures.

Min % Chance: The lowest chance per level of the importance the creation of a certain Item has.
This will be mostly affected by the character model and the social structure of your civilization (which
will also affect the type of Item produced as well if any).

Max % Chance: The greatest chance of a level of status for an Item without the character model
getting involved. Because of the character modelfs significance in this area the higher level status
Items, like Relics, arenft as great a chance of occurring as lower levels.

Base % Creation: This represents the base, not minimum, chance of creation of an Item. Again this
doesnft show the percentages if the character model is involved. Other things that can modify this
are basically social conditions as well as resources put into the Arts by the government.

Max Length of Effects: This is the length of time an Item adds bonuses to the area (the area can
vary). The numbers represent the levels from Immediate to Extremely Long Range. These ranges
will be discussed below.

2.5 - Ruins are more of a submodel of both Man-Made Structures and Items, but have enough
importance and differences to be places here. Ruins are things lost to time and rediscovered later.
Like Natural Structures these will be placed around the map at the beginning of the game.
However, in order to discover them it must be at least 1000 ACE and the civ must have a high
enough level of Archeology basic tech. Also Ruins can be entire villages or cities and not just a
single item. They can appear on there own tiles or on tiles with cites already on them.

Ruins Chart

Level Number Appearing
Small 1:1570
Moderate 1:3360
Large 1:7840


Level: Various levels for Ruins. Ifm tired of thinking up cool names for them right now so donft
bug me about the Level names.

Number Appearing: This is the ratio for determining how many Ruins are on a particular world
based on the total number of continental tiles. Continental tiles are any land tiles as well as tiles on
the continental shelf. This is to keep things balanced regardless of the map size. If there is any extra
tiles that donft equal another Ruin then those tiles are disregarded. This ratio is based on the
standard tile size of 100x100km. For the math I simply used the Natural Structures model of ratios
multiplied by .35.

3.0 Effects of these models vary a whole lot so I will just list the general effects.

œ Tourism
œ Migration
œ Popularity
œ Defense/Offense Bonues
œ Social Modifiers
œ Government Modifiers
œ Basic Tech Bonuses
œ Religious Conversion

3.1 Multiplier Factor is used to show the changes over time the various type of wonders and
achievements have on the world. There are 5 levels, though not all wonders or achievements will
reach level 5. T represents the time factor of multiplication in the models above.

œ Level 1 - Immediate (0 Turns, ie that turn)
œ Level 2 - Short Term (1 - 4T)
œ Level 3 - Moderate Term (4T+1 - 10T)
œ Level 4 - Long Term (10T+1 - 25T)
œ Level 5 - Extremely Long Term - (25T+1 and beyond)

[Chris Wilkinson]

LGJ, Pretty impressive IMO, but I'm a bit worried that it's a tad over-complicated. Can we have some feedback on this everybody?

Nice work,
Chris

[Mark_Everson]

LGJ & Chris:

One big problem with your man-made wonders is that there are no "ordinary" buildings, in fact generally no structures of any kind, in the economic model. You probably should at least read the introduction part to the economic model. There will probably be a few exceptions like aqueducts, fortifications, and port facilities, but there will not be the improvements of the sort you have come to be used to in civ. So I have some reservations about how exactly your conception of the wonder model works in terms of how the economic model works. What I had in mind for a building race in say skyscrapers is kind of similar to what you have outlined. In a case there would be a special building called skyscraper which could either achieve wonder status or not, and slowly fade into insignificance as taller structures appear. But it wouldn't work that way with respect to general infrastructure.

In terms of the man-made wonders I agree with your arguments that throwing money at a project would not necessarily result in a better wonder. However, I think that your approach in determining the level of the wonder is both overly complicated, and will frustrate players. At least if I understand your system IMO it will just become a large crapshoot, giving an occasional elation, and much more often disappointment. So although I agree with your assessment of what happens in the real world, I think it will make for a lousy game aspect...

I still have a problem seeing how items fit in with the general scope of the game. To have any real effect on the game they would have to be so powerful as to be ridiculous IMO. If you view them as window dressing for the character model that is OK as far as I can see, but I have trouble seen how a player not in extremely low level role-playing mode would be interested in them at all. I would welcome both of your comments on this because I still don't get it.

I would also add another category to the wonders model since that is where I think it best belongs. It would just cover areas where in the normal activities of the civ, that particular civ is superlative to all others that are known. (The most educated by far, renowned for having the best artists, that civ's language being used as a lingua franca...) I would call it Achievements or something similar. The basic idea is that just like a physical structure can lead to tourism, feelings of pride, etc., so can this sort of achievement of the entire civ. To get this bonus the civ would have to be far above average in a particular category, so these rewards would generally be a few and far between. Your thoughts?

[Kull]

I think it is VERY important that we post this on the Web Site and announce it on Apolyton. The more publicity, the greater the chance of getting lots of feedback.

Chris, since you are the "Wonder Guy", how about sending me a clean copy of the base document? I'll then set up a new "Wonders Model" page, with the usual links. If either you or LGJ has a theme graphic you'd like me to use, send that along too!

Nice job, LGJ!

[Kull]

Here's a first cut at the new Wonders Model Page

[Chris Wilkinson]

Kull,
You should have a 'clean' version, so can you put that up. I think the picture that's up at the moment will surfice

Mark,
Do you want to tell Apolyton about this as Kull suggested?
[This message has been edited by Chris Wilkinson (edited March 14, 2000).]

[F_Smith]

Lordy:

This is excellent. You've identified the basic objects, and their behaviors. We can create a simple, workable object model out of this that will have a major game impact, and be very easy to use.

Should we do that work here, in this thread, or back in the OOA thread where we started? I'll assume back in the OOA thread, so we don't bore people with the details.

So I'll now post over there.

Again, good job.

[Lord God Jinnai]

Mark
One big problem with your man-made wonders is that there are no "ordinary" buildings, in fact generally no structures of any kind, in the economic model. You probably should at least read the introduction part to the economic model. There will probably be a few exceptions like aqueducts, fortifications, and port facilities, but there will not be the improvements of the sort you have come to be used to in civ. So I have some reservations about how exactly your conception of the wonder model works in terms of how the economic model works.
---
Ok I can work with that. In such as case the building of a a sturcture like a library would always have a wonder status. The differance is basically dependant on whodecides to build it, ie the player (civ AI), the govenor/provintial AI, citizens or a business.


What I had in mind for a building race in say skyscrapers is kind of similar to what you have outlined. In a case there would be a special building called skyscraper which could either achieve wonder status or not, and slowly fade into insignificance as taller structures appear. But it wouldn't work that way with respect to general infrastructure.
---
I really don't want to use this type of system although your method has the least amount of problems, it does still have many. First off we'll start simple and go to more complex examples.

Lets say 2 civs are in a race (Civ A and Civ B). We're assuming all things equal except where I explisitly say otherwise (FE same architeture basic tech level) Civ A starts their structure before Civ B. Civ A would normally get the shorter building than Civ B when completed. What however if Civ B is done first? What if Civ A has a slightly higher architeture level (say .02) but gets done first? What if the differance is only 1 turn apart or better yet the same turn and each is done on the same turn (ie everything is equal? Now add about 50 more civs competing. Also add the fact that say Civ C had to use some of its resources in other areas (such as agriculture to keep the population from starving). Lets say the race has been going on a while. If Civ C wants to enter at ground level it will have to spend an enourmous amount of money just to compete. This won't be as big a deal to the other civs because they already have other buildings that are produing revenue from the race. This makes it extremely difficult for Civ C to enter. Also what happens if the best building of that type gets destroyed?

This is just an overly complicated mess to solve who gets what. Although a good idea, in theory, in practicallity its not.

In terms of the man-made wonders I agree with your arguments that throwing money at a project would not necessarily result in a better wonder. However, I think that your approach in determining the level of the wonder is both overly complicated, and will frustrate players. At least if I understand your system IMO it will just become a large crapshoot, giving an occasional elation, and much more often disappointment. So although I agree with your assessment of what happens in the real world, I think it will make for a lousy game aspect...
---
Well I also plan to incorperated the social factors in to it. Because of the way we're designing it so that we can incorperate so many differnt types of aspects and levels of wonders in this world as well as arbitrary ones there is no other way. Also creating wonders is like playing craps. well more like poker. You can do things to improve your odds, but you can't dictate what people think.

I still have a problem seeing how items fit in with the general scope of the game. To have any real effect on the game they would have to be so powerful as to be ridiculous IMO.
----
Howso?

If you view them as window dressing for the character model that is OK as far as I can see, but I have trouble seen how a player not in extremely low level role-playing mode would be interested in them at all. I would welcome both of your comments on this because I still don't get it.
---
You're saying that most people won't like the fact that they had someone create the Mona Lisa FE? The only real differance as far as usage is that items are portable and can go on tours, be sold (or leased) or stolen. There are other differnace, but those are minor points, ie details.

I would also add another category to the wonders model since that is where I think it best belongs. It would just cover areas where in the normal activities of the civ, that particular civ is superlative to all others that are known. (The most educated by far, renowned for having the best artists, that civ's language being used as a lingua franca...) I would call it Achievements or something similar. The basic idea is that just like a physical structure can lead to tourism, feelings of pride, etc., so can this sort of achievement of the entire civ. To get this bonus the civ would have to be far above average in a particular category, so these rewards would generally be a few and far between. Your thoughts?
---
I thought this was being handled in other models. I know the character model will be handling stuff like greatest people of differnt types and they will be in differnt areas. If you're saying it should get s special bonus, i'm all for that, but I don't think it would go in the wonder's area. Now there are things that I might do. This would be for places like athens once was a center for learning would be "remembered" for that or Gettysburg is "remembered" as one of the most important battles of the US Civil War (and other stuff), etc. If we were to go for one, ie the "Athens type" you descibed above, we should also include the "Gettysburg" type and others.

[roquijad]

I think the model is really interesting and innovative. I really like the idea of items and the fact that they're not built by the player, but by the people.
About ruins, instead of being created randomly at the beggining of the game like natural wonders, I'd prefer them to be a consequence of gameplay. FE, if a combat destroys a city, then tile gets a "potential ruin" status, so in the future and with archelogy techs available, the tile can get the "ruins status". We can do something similar with items. Any items held in a city which is destroyed, can get a "buried status" and discovered in the future turning its status back to "normal" like recovering the item from the ground.

I don't see the model being messy for the player. Since the player can only build structural-wonders, I imagine a "wonders window" where the player can specify a province, an the type of structure (temple, etc) and a share% of total funds that must be spent in the wonder each turn. Money starts to accumulate there until a threshold is passed. The thershold depends on the magnitude of the wonder you specified. Once the threshold is passed, the province gets the wonder. Sounds simple and this can solve the problem of not having costs for ordinary buildings.

I think what's maybe difficult for this model is to get track of many bonuses from a lot of wonders without using much PC resources....

[Kull]

I think that most Wonders have something that truly makes them unique: The vision and/or artistic capabilities of one man.

Would there have been Pyramids without Imhotep? Hanging Gardens without Nebuchadnezzar? Eiffel Tower without Gustav Eiffel? I could go on, but you can see my point. Perhaps all man-made wonders should REQUIRE input from the Characters model. It would certainly eliminate the ludicrous "race" to build wonders. If you don't have Imhotep, you can't even conceive of Pyramids, much less build them. This is even more true when it comes to "items". No sum of money in the world can create the Mona Lisa. Only the genius of Leonardo da Vinci could do that. Something to think about.

[LOGO]

I agree with Kull, the only problem is that the Charactors are suppost to be optional. So that will have to be ironed out.

I'm really wondering if all wonders should be availible to all cultures. For instance Romeo would never build a Pyrimid. The idea would make no sense to build and therefore would not be built. Most of roman arcitecture was concerned with funtion over form, which was the complete opposite with Egypt. Could we make it easier for some cultures to make artistic wonders and harder for them to make scientific projects? And obviosly a democrasy can't build huge statues of their kings

[Chris Wilkinson]

I think these ideas which people are coming up with (like having people who build the wonder f.e.) are great and would provide a really interesting game, but my worry (which I said from the birth of the wonders model) is that it will become over-complicated and will confuse people.

I think that if we are to include this radical new system, we'll have to make an option to use the Civ-style system instead. I know this would require more programming to implement this, but I think it would be worth it. What do you think?

[LOGO]

Let's just try to make this system and good as it can be before we start building a safety net. When we're done then we can add that in if we really think the model will MUST be an option. I believe the problem with onnovative systems we're coming up with is that everyone's afraid of what those people who only want to play Civ. II won't like it. If you want to play a updated version of Civ. II then play Civ. III (when it ships) but why don't we try to keep our game innovative. My reason is that when we try to implement a game with or without the system then we spend even more time figuring out how the game would work without the system, and many times good features are hinderd. Again, let's just create a incredible system now and worry about all that stuff later.

[Lord God Jinnai]

roquijad
About ruins, instead of being created randomly at the beggining of the game like natural wonders, I'd prefer them to be a consequence of gameplay. FE, if a combat destroys a city, then tile gets a "potential ruin" status, so in the future and with archelogy techs available, the tile can get the "ruins status". We can do something similar with items. Any items held in a city which is destroyed, can get a "buried status" and discovered in the future turning its status back to "normal" like recovering the item from the ground.
-----
This is a very good idea and would like to impliment it, however we need to address the following:
- How easy will it be to destroy a city? Also if a player destroyed it early on they know where to look for it later (the former can be worked around by not allowing the player to spesify where to dig).
- There also are places that simply weren't destroyed by ivasion or such throughout history and would still need to be placed randomly. Most of these have to do with diseases or climatic changes.
- Also there are many pehistory ruins of nomadic tribes which wouldn't be dealt with. Course I may have missed that on mine also -_-

I think what's maybe difficult for this model is to get track of many bonuses from a lot of wonders without using much PC resources....
-----
It shouldn't be that difficult. It would check to see if a new time period (ie short term to moderate term) has come, it the creation will still effect anything that long and then change it appropriatly. If it checks and a time period hasn't change it uses the already incorperated formula instead.

Kull
Would there have been Pyramids without Imhotep? Hanging Gardens without Nebuchadnezzar? Eiffel Tower without Gustav Eiffel? I could go on, but you can see my point. Perhaps all man-made wonders should REQUIRE input from the Characters model. It would certainly eliminate the ludicrous "race" to build wonders. If you don't have Imhotep, you can't even conceive of Pyramids, much less build them. This is even more true when it comes to "items". No sum of money in the world can create the Mona Lisa. Only the genius of Leonardo da Vinci could do that. Something to think about.
-----
This is true, however the character and wonder models will be based around abstracts so someone like me (and many others) don't have to use characters and wonders from this world.

LOGO
I'm really wondering if all wonders should be availible to all cultures. For instance Romeo would never build a Pyrimid. The idea would make no sense to build and therefore would not be built. Most of roman arcitecture was concerned with funtion over form, which was the complete opposite with Egypt. Could we make it easier for some cultures to make artistic wonders and harder for them to make scientific projects? And obviosly a democrasy can't build huge statues of their kings
-----
If we did so we'd be using the cultural types already decided in the technology section. But I do agree with that. The thing is that it can be then unbalanced. Most "wonders" are in Europe/Middle East in ancient/medevil history. None were in the Americas. Also this may not be a concern if playing with more abstract wonder system since the romans would build a temple wonder, the Japanese a Shrine Wonder or the Moddle aged europe building Catherdrals.

Let's just try to make this system and good as it can be before we start building a safety net. When we're done then we can add that in if we really think the model will MUST be an option. I believe the problem with onnovative systems we're coming up with is that everyone's afraid of what those people who only want to play Civ. II won't like it. If you want to play a updated version of Civ. II then play Civ. III (when it ships) but why don't we try to keep our game innovative. My reason is that when we try to implement a game with or without the system then we spend even more time figuring out how the game would work without the system, and many times good features are hinderd. Again, let's just create a incredible system now and worry about all that stuff later.
----
I'm with LOGO on this.

[LOGO]

LGJ, no wonders in the Americas? Are you speaking of the seven wonders of the world? Isn't that a european idea, therefore be centered in Europe? If your just speaking of wonders in general (as in, "ohhh that temple is wonderous!") what about the Myans, Aztecs, and Incas. Along with large "land mounds" made in north america which could be callled wonders. I think wonders should have a effect on the views by other cultures, for example the french palace of Versais is ment to intimidate other monarchs as much as it is to entertain the king.