Wonders and Achievements

[LOGO]

well that's why I saild it would be depleting, knowing leif crossed the atlantic doesn't do anything for the Greenlanders now but having Sputnik in space made the world think of the Soviets as THE space power. Much of the bonuses I'm thinking of is in terms of preception that other countries have of you, I won't go into detail because I know very little about the diplomacy model but I'd asume there would be ways of when you complete a big project some would have new found respect for you, some would disrespect you (let's say if it was bad for the enviroment), some would want to make an alyance out of fear, and some would feel threatened and it just might kick off a cold war (something that everyone wants to see in Clash someday...) I also think there should be some kind of mulitiplying bonus when achieving things that are related in the same time period (e.g. Sputnick, First man in space, first spacwalk etc.) also there should be a bonus for going into research of another related project. The project system sounds like it might be pretty tech related and we need a way from distinguising the two.

[Lord God Jinnai]

I think I said a while ago that the dif between projects and technolgies is that projects are things that though difficult to achieve are merly extentions of current technology that push it father than we though before. What is the internet but a network that spans the world. Networks have been realized for over 20 years, but not to such a scale.

[LOGO]

But you must admit technolgies are quite often discorverd while a project is being developed. Take the Pyrimids, the first two pyrimids were huge dissapointments. But the egyptions learned from their mistakes and went on to build the Red Pyrimids and the Pyrimids of Giza. They devolped technologies out of nececity, engineering technolgies, but technolgies. You must remember technology is the application of science, we through around the term techs quite a bit without it making much sense. Though I do agree with you, there must be a technological base, there can also be room for breakthroughs. Look at the Apallo program! Those technologies already existed? And what about things like human genome or cure for cancer? That's all research.

[Lord God Jinnai]

Pyramids still had the fundimental technology of engineering the same. It was more sophisticated and thus allowed for the "success" that time rather than failure.

The fundimental technologies that allow a project to be taken on exist. We had we had done space travel before we landed on the moon and had gone around it several times. The new thing was we were landing on the moon.

Human Genome project we've had the technology for a while, its simply a long and tedius process to collect the data, sort it and file it. we're talking about an extrodinary amount of data here.

Cure for Cancer, well we have already cured one disease, smallpox, before using simple opservation and putting that opservation to use. It didn't require any new tech (BTW Cure for Smallpox should get wonder status before Cure for Cancer since A> it was the first disease ever cured and B> at the time it affected almost the entire world). Yes I know cancer is differnt (we also can't put all cancers under the Cure for Cancer since although basically the same each is completely differnt) but the actual medical technology since it was really decided (I do mean really) to go after a cure was close to a cure already.

[LOGO]

I see what your saying, I agree, though its not in perfect realism (in certain cases) I think it's a solid foundation to keep them apart for the player's sanity sake. Though I still think many technologies were created out of project neccecity, just look at kevlar and velcro But again I do agree with the majority it is true.

[Matthew]

I look foreward to beingable to play this game, and think it will likely turn out better than Civ III.

I also think you should charge for it.

As far as wonders go, I think the ideas are very interresting, but from a strategy standpoint I think it necessary to have at least some wonders availible that will be predictable, and with success pretty much guaranteed. For example, the Super Science City strategyin Civ II addsgreat variety to the game, especially multiplayer, where for the most part ICS and happy wonders tend to dominate. It would be unfortunate if something like a super science city strategy would become unviable because more likely than not at least one of the key wonders would either likely not turn out or would expire too soon .

I also think that it would be nice if there were a greater variety of single city wonders than in Civ II. Perhaps wonders that would allow for a super military city, a super tax city, and a super trade route city, just like a combination of wonders gives one a super science city in Civ II. This would allow smaller civs to compete much more effectively against larger ICS type civs, especially if these single city wonders were more expensive and less powerful for larger civs.

One more small unrelated request. Please save the Camel.

[Lord God Jinnai]

quote: Originally posted by Matthew on 07-23-2000 07:15 PM As far as wonders go, I think the ideas are very interresting, but from a strategy standpoint I think it necessary to have at least some wonders availible that will be predictable, and with success pretty much guaranteed. For example, the Super Science City strategyin Civ II addsgreat variety to the game, especially multiplayer, where for the most part ICS and happy wonders tend to dominate. It would be unfortunate if something like a super science city strategy would become unviable because more likely than not at least one of the key wonders would either likely not turn out or would expire too soon .

Well that may in fact be difficult depending on what you mean. Success part can be done, if your willing to shell out the resources to do it. U mean the Great Wall of China wouln't have made it a wonder had it been only a few feet high and not as long.

As far as predicatability is concered that may be harder to fulfill. Right now we're working on some standard earth wonders and achievments to base the abstract ones on, but even so, things will still vary, espically wonders because society might see that Michelangelo's chapel as not a great a wonder as the Taj Mahal. There will be some perdictability, but not entirely. The wonder structure is not civ2 type wonder structure. Its more realistic and slightly more complex as well as having no "magical effects."

quote: Originally posted by Matthew on 07-23-2000 07:15 PM I also think that it would be nice if there were a greater variety of single city wonders than in Civ II. Perhaps wonders that would allow for a super military city, a super tax city, and a super trade route city, just like a combination of wonders gives one a super science city in Civ II. This would allow smaller civs to compete much more effectively against larger ICS type civs, especially if these single city wonders were more expensive and less powerful for larger civs.

Well there will be a greater number avialable, but most will not become that great to be called "Wonder." There will be a lot more lesser ones and a few more greater ones so that its balanced out. This is one reason for the fact that the model cannot guarantee predictability because when something is built, the people, not player will determine how great it is.
[This message has been edited by Lord God Jinnai (edited July 23, 2000).]

[Lord God Jinnai]

Well im posting this because i finally realized that the new infra model now pretty much smacks this model around to useless. I knew that infra couldn't ness. be built as in 'i want to build a library' sense in civ2 and whatnot, but infra was still there, ie there would still be a library object for libraries built.

I also knew that many things weren't determined by the player when developing infra, but the model also gives a big, though not quite as big blow to this because it seems you cannot develope specific parts of the infrastructure.

Anyway this model is about abstract as it can get and still be functional. I am only even addressing it now because from what i think infra model will be in some fundimental ways coded in the next demo which will as i say make this model all but useless and i can't really make it any more abstract than it already is w/o making that model also useless.

Now i did say in the tech model i had a way of perhaps dealing with this, but i'm not sure, espicially if the AI itself cannot build specific structures.

The way would be that the infra model would continue to do as it is, but wouldn't include anything listed in this model which although may be part of the infrastucture, it has taken on an additional and new meaning wholly differnt. This would require checks every now and then to see if things appear as new wonders or achievements which could become complex, but i see no other way around it.

Also there is an importance for specific objects in the infra model to be created beyond what i thought of earlier. FE a library houses knowledge, everyone knows this. The thing is, knowledge is static in the forms of books, papaers, stones, etc., or virtually so. This means that if you find a library with knowledge from a dead civilization it could help you with technology perhaps, new understandings of the past most likely, new ideas or a rebirth of ideas such as in ideologies, etc. As it is now such cannot happen with the infra model and i do not know how to implement it here.

[axi]

oy, there is talk about infrastructure everywhere but in the actual infrastructure thread. Furthermore, it seems that my infrastructure proposal makes everyone unhappy. First Richard says the Tech model is devastated with it, then you say it is ruining the Wonders model! What can I say? As it seems, infrastructure is a more central model than we had predicted. But...

The abstract way that infrastructure is handled was outlined in Mark's economic model way before I wrote the details. It was there all the time. Mark has pointed this out to you in his very first reply in this thread. i can't see anything I've brought making this model useless. I feel that you're just overreacting.

Wonderbuilding (Special Projects and Manmade Structures) requires quite alot of extra resources, which the people by themselves are not expected to raise. I have already described how this could happen in the infrastructure thread: Beör was asking how he could build the Bismarck. I explained how he can build a big battleship (how to collect enough "military units" infraclass units inside a province to build a battleship, although he could build something else as well, f.e. some panzer divisions). The Bismarck was in fact a wonder of sorts (judging by the fear it inspired to the allied navies), so was the Yamato, the Hood, the Tenesee and any large capital ship of it's era. All navies had at least one big battleship built for them (even Greece had the legendary "Averof"), but not all battleships were wonders. So what did the Bismarck have that the Hood didn't? Perhaps due to slightly better tech, perhaps due to better design (random factor), perhaps due to larger budget, perhaps due to later construction date (which partly covers tech, but also involves maintenance), the Bismarck ended up being a wonder of naval engineering, instead of a mere achievement (one level above). So, in the one to one battle that judged their fate, the Bismarck sank the Hood. There were other battleships which, due to smaller size (f.e. Warsprite), didn't even reach the status that the Hood had, as capital ship of the Royal Navy. Btw, I know a whole bunch of people down at the OTF who would be fascinated by the prospect of making a wonder out of their favorite warship: unit-wonders are a must!

So this is what I propose: Each type of manmade wonder that costs anything (structures and projects) will be linked with one or more of the infraclasses of the game, according to it's proclaimed purpose. The Apollo program (or should I say the "manned mission to the moon" project) would be defined as 60% research and 40% transportation. The "big religious building" would be of course 100% religious infra. This way we can compute how much is needed in infra units (and thus in commodities) to build it.

Of course the same "wonder units" will not cost the same for each civ, so it is possible that civ1, after giving 50 transp infra units which cost it 40P+10S or 50CC for the world's largest bridge, gets beaten by civ2, who gave 60 units, for only 30P+10S or 40CC, because civ2 had better tech. Of course civ3 could do better, with 70 units, costing 56P+14S but only 42CC, becayse civ3 may have the same tech as civ1, but being an industrial nation, production is cheaper there.

This of course supposes that the tech level of infrastructure will be considered before the computation of the infra units and not afterwards (see my reply to Richard in the Tech 5.3 thread), so that 1 unit of transp.infra will mean the same thing for all civs and all times, regardless of tech advancement. See, at least something useful came out of this discussion: it helped us decide which way to go regarding the use of A; it makes sense only before the investment machine (If I'm wrong, somebody point it out to me, fast!).

Once a wonder is built and it's level is determined, it's effects can be determined in the same way. Each wonder must have effects according to the purpose it was built for. So the world's biggest bridge, which has cost civ3 70 transp infra units must have the effect of at least 70 transp infra units. Since it is special, it can have the effect of say, 80 transp infra units. If something happened and the bridge was a failure, it could end up having the effect of say 60 transp infra units. In some cases, this effect could be 0 (total failure). Apart from the infrastructure related effects, there will be other effects, as you have planned them out. Sometimes, a wonder may be a failure for the purpose it was intended, but prove to be beneficiary exactly because of these other effects. The great wall f.e. was unable to fend off the Mongols, but it is the focus of national pride for the Chinese. One might say that it was one of the many Chinese wonders that inspired awe to the invading Mongols, thus helping their cultural assimilation by the people they defeated, like the Greek artwork did to the Romans. So in a circumvent way, the Great Wall achieved it's purpose.

Wonders is a great example of what the infamous infrastructure units can be turned into. Such an object based interpretation of infra units will be also made for all military units (not just the wondrous ones), since the military model requires such a thing (differentiated military units). One could generalise this to all infraclasses, so that, in the end we would end up in a all-buildings game, just like in civ, civ2, ctp and smac. But I feel most infraclasses should be played abstractly.

Are you happy now? Can we now concentrate to the core architecture and demo5 issues?

[Lord God Jinnai]

This is the glossary for the Wonders & Achievements model (Which could almost be seen as an extension of the Infrastructure model).

Man-made Structures: Structures built by a sentient race of the planet. These structures can be buildings, statues, walls or anything of that nature. Man-made structures are immobile by there very nature. There are differnt levels based on the social models inputs and the resources put into the Man-Made Structure.

Natural Structures: Scrutures that occur without interferance my any sentient race. There are limited number on each planet. Natural Structures are by there very nature immobile. There are differnt levels based on the social models inputs.

Projects: Revolutionary or extraordinary events. These do not use new technologies or new ideas, but may by there very nature, spur those areas temporarily to achieve this status. The Apollo Program is one example. Despite what the current model shows i have decided to wave all levels of these and base all results on social indicators only.

Items: Small man-made creations similar in concept to Man-Made Structures save that these are by there very nature mobile. Also mnay of these, unlike Man-Made Structures usually do not rely on archietural technology levels.

Ruins: Lost relics of the past. These could have been Items or Man-Made Strucutres or even cities. In either case some ruins will be spontaniously created during the beginning of the game and others will appear as the results of the actions in the game itself. As of now there is no way to develope these as the game progresses, however.