Do not forget to implement and release...

[JimC]

I don't have much experience with huge projects, but I always try and make my modules into simple demos as soon as I possibly can....

It's much easier to get feedback for a working demo, although the downside is wasting time designing and coding the demo interface etc.

I believe that getting each individual section into some kind of 'demo-able' form would be optimal, if we had the time. Even a simple 'combat results calculator' which people (even those not connected to the project) could experiment with would be a huge help.

Re lawyers: If we're even thinking about them, then we're in this project for the wrong reasons, IMO. Leave them to chase their ambulances around and rip off vulnerable people.

Re documentation: Yeah, I hate it. My design notes tend to be rushed scribbles, illegible to anyone but myself. Javadoc helps to ease the process, however.

Jim

[Mark_Everson]

All:

A lot of this stuff should really go into the process thread I referenced above. If you want to propose a new way to do things, or elaborate upon our brief process document, that's the place where your thoughts belong. Or are you just "people that find great fun in writing long papers about" the way things Should be here?

Martin:

I agree, upon further thought, that the '10-hours/week' position I outlined above is too inflexible. I thought I'd put that 'requirement' down somewhere when you mentioned it, but frankly I can't find it in my documentation. It certainly has not been followed by us in recruiting new members. 10/week should only be the average requirement for 'core' team members. I do believe in a lot of the benefits of open design and coding, and certainly want to harness much of their energy for Clash.

If you (or anyone else) would like to do something more constrained without a huge committment, just propose it, or give a list of possibles. Several people have already entered the project in just that way. You already put some suggestions up above, but I'm not sure if these were just examples or what you really would like to do if you participated. Alternatively, say what you're good at, and what level of time committment you are willing to make, and we'll find something for you if you are interested.

BTW, I said I hated "...writing of long papers on game mechanics". Anyone who is willing to provide me a secretary for this purpose would be greatly appreciated . Obviously, I, and many here, love the design effort itself. I realize you're probably not a native english speaker, but next time before launching into a paragraph of sarcastic remarks, perhaps you should take more care to parse the statement to which you are responding?

Peter:

We are just trying to find a relatively efficient balance between design thought and coding efficiency. The process we are using (thread 70 ref. above) was proposed by me about a month ago and was accepted (with some modifications) either explicitly or implicitly by the group. Should we be flexible in its implementation, of course! Could we change it completely if desired by most members? Yes. Is the process we've chosen the best way to do it? Heck if I know.

We all know that every model we are proposing has a relatively low likelihood of making it into the final game unchanged. Many of the models are very aggressive. And who knows if they will pass the 'fun test'. But we need to ensure that we don't start with models for different game elements that are clearly incompatible. Also, because of our focus on good AI, it is necessary that each model have a character that we think allows for relatively effective writing of an AI. The only way I know of to do these things with a team, is to have each model somewhat documented before serious coding begins.

When I was working alone I spent a lot of time and effort designing and coding an economic model that I now, in retrospect, think is garbage. Opening the design process to all interested parties, and discussing the models in some detail first, will hopefully seriously reduce the likelihood of further big mistakes like this. Clearly the talking can be overdone, but so can the rush to 'get something out'. Only with Both drives IMO can this project succeed.

Jim:

I agree that mini-demos are a good way to go, providing they don't add too much to the workload. Why don't you put the suggestion in the process thread and we can see at what level we can make it 'spec' for the process.

-Mark

[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited June 20, 1999).]

[mca]

I realize you're probably not a native english speaker, but next time before launching into a paragraph of sarcastic remarks, perhaps you should take more care to parse the statement to which you are responding?

You're right. I'm not a native speaker, and I certainly do not generally read a distinction between the physical effort and the mental effort into the word writing, and therefore I thought that you were being ironic. Had you said typing then I certainly would have understood. But the really horrendous error, I made here, is that I forgot to place a smiley after the paragraph to indicate that I was not being too serious about it. Sorry. It's there now.

Anyway, forget about the lawyers, I'm going to give you a (short) list of what I think I'm good at, but I'm not going to tell you how much time I'm going to put into the project. What I can tell you, is that I'm mostly booked until the end of July, then I have "lots of time", but things may change.

In general, count me in on the following items:
- Program design and architecture.
- General, networked, and multi-threaded programming in Java.

Martin


[This message has been edited by mca (edited June 20, 1999).]

[Mark_Everson]

Martin:

Oh well, I misunderstood your post too. Now I can see it... Duh. You're right the emoticon does wonders too.

Welcome to the project. If you have the time in july, please look into the architecture threads as they appear. As it gets close to your free time, and you have a better idea on your constraints, we'll try to figure out the best way to use your talents .

-Mark

[axi]

***BUMP!***

I found this thread very interesting and I decided to bring it to the surface, for the benefit of all, specially for us who are younger here.

Some questions for everybody to consider:

What do you say about the current progress of Clash? Is I doing as it should have?

What is your opinion about the current demo release policy? Do you feel that the Clash team should go easy on the models and start serious coding?

Do you still regard Clash as a quasi - open source project? At which point do you think it should be closed - up?

What I am hoping to do is stirr up some discussion in a time when the Clash forum page has shrunk dangerously. It seems to me that there are very few people actually posting nowdays and, ecxept for a couple of threads, the place looks abandoned. Unless everybody is busy, quietly working on the next demo (which I think is not the case), it is an alarming sign.


------------------
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
George Orwell

[Lord God Jinnai]

Demos/Progress: I really think the upcoming demo5 and 6 should work on the stripped-down models as they will prob be in the final version. I really think that some models (such as character, disease, etc.) need to have a general idea of what to expect before they can progress much further. I'm not saying what will be on the next few demos will be the stripped down versions, but it will make more progress possible if they are more or less so, barring the tweaking process and models that just don't end up working.

Some of the things in the research/tech//lore whatever u want to call it model have been pretty much nailed down, barrring any major changes. There are too many to state here, but one of the things that isn't is the exact items or whatever that will be in there, basicaally the strcuture is for the most part with just fine tuning left and maybe some additonal modifiers. (The social//cultural modifiers will have to wait till we get a new person to do that new model since manurein seems to be missing....)

I think its time to start closing some holes in what can and can't be changed in the next few models so we can progress and get this thing done before I die of old age.

[Mark_Everson]

Axi (and everyone else too):

current progress...

Too slow, but that's life! More on why below.

release policy... go easy on the models and start serious coding...

Your phrasing betrays a bad assumption about what is holding things up. The basic root of it is lack of programmers and programmers' time. We have by my count four basically reliable programmers. My working definition is programmers who have said they were committed and have Actually Done Something. The four are me, Darren, Garth, and Anton (rentgen). Darren and Garth are both sidelined with Real Life for perhaps a month more yet. Rentgen has just become available again, but for the moment only for 'light duty'. I have no good excuse for why I'm not coding other than that I need a break. For about half a year I was putting in about 30-40 hours a week on Clash in addition to my job. Mid-January I felt that if I kept going like that I was going to get burnt out. So I am currently goofing off and only putting in 10-20 hours a week. That leaves very little for coding. However I will rise to the challenge again when necessary. Anyway, if the coders would have been available I would have done my best to accelerate the progress on the models for demo 5, we would have cut some corners, and we would be much further along. Although possibly with missteps due to poor planning. When the coders become available again we will make hard decisions and cut the debates off on the models so we can Do Something

BTW historically I have usually thought that we had more coders than we actually did. This is because I foolishly believed it when people said they wanted to help in programming Clash, and had the requisite amount of time to commit. Most of these people just waste a lot of my time in figuring out what they could do, and getting them up to speed, and then disappear without a trace. That's why now a days I only refer to coders who appear reliable (if not always available) based on a track record. If we can get firing on 'all four cylinders' we will make rapid progress, but its not happenin' yet. Of course we could practically use 10 or more motivated programmers, but that is as yet the stuff of my dreams.

Forum contributions shrinking...
That goes in phases. I personally am less concerned about that then about getting further along the specific models targeted for demo 5: Econ, Mil, Tech, and Diplomacy.

[Mark_Everson_mode-on]
So Axi, are you interested in learning java so you can help in the coding?
[Mark_Everson_mode-off]

[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited February 23, 2000).]

[axi]

Mark: Of course you need coders, I knew that. That's why, although I am tracking the Clash project closely for almost 3 months, I am reluctant of officially joining the Clash Team, since I am neither a coder nor an artist. All I can do is help with the models and that is what I have done so far, hopping like a jack-rabbit, from model to model (Graphics > Economy > Scales > Technology > ?) Clash has already too many of these guys though and I am well aware that my objective value to the project is very small. I wish I could find a way to give you essential help and not just words.

As for the java, they say that if you know C it is very easy to switch, but all I've had in programming experience is one semester course of FORTRAN 77. If I ever learn java, I will let you know.

As for F_Smith, I tried to lure him back, but...



------------------
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
George Orwell

[Mark_Everson]

Axi:

Making the models better is Very Valuable also! I think the function you have undertaken as 'roving advocate/contributor' is quite useful. I wish we had more! Its just not what is holding us up right now. But the final product, whether it is mostly there this year, or a few years from now, will be stronger because of your and the other 'modelers' efforts. We have seen the result of many games where the programming and artistic resources were committed, but the designs were poorly thought-out. They are generally not worth playing!

[F_Smith]

Hi, all:

Axi -- I'm sorry, but my free time is very sketchy, at best. I usually get one to two hours a day, if the wife and children don't demand that time then I can keep up with Clash. Which is barely enough time to read the posts, some days!

I am willing to help, and have done a little in the past. I'm just not the master of my own time anymore! I can not take any kind of pivotal role. I tried that once upon a time last year, and I was so unavailable that it created more havoc than help. Mark is very kind in putting up with me at all.

Richard -- I agree with Mark. Other than the switch to an object-oriented paradigm, learning Java is very easy for someone that thinks logically. Years to master, but you would be useful very quickly in coding pieces/objects.

[axi]

Funny thing: I, who am all but useless here, being a student, have usually lots of spare time. F_Smith, a skilled coder, being married and a working man, has no time to spare. What a waste for both of us! (him wasting his skill - me wasting my time)

Anyway, if, now or in the future, you have any chores I can do, other than posting here, I'm willing to relieve you.

Idea: Hey maybe we could draft a list of things to do, for people that feel useless, like me, so that they become more useful (and more devoted). I am sure that towards the end, when the modeling will stop, there will be a whole bundle of things that a less gifted person can do for Clash.
Systematic playtesting will be one, but this is waaay ahead...

------------------
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
George Orwell

[Lord God Jinnai]

*o* Well axi, I too am a student so ur not alone. I am, however, working as the head of the tech model (with lots of help from rich), the only person character model right now (no reason to bother coding though till most of the other models are more concrete) and am a team member with the Wonders model so I have found a way to put my free time to use. I may even do some artistry (not units or anything, but pictures) in a while.

[Richard Bruns]

Axi (And anyone else with too much time):

If you are scraping the bottom of the barrel for things to do, then I have a suggestion. Only a few clicks away from this post there are forums filled with player ideas and suggestions for Civ 3. This would be a gold mine of ideas, opinions, and other good input, if anyone took the time to sort through it all. I read some of this in the past, but now I simply don't have the time. You can read through all the stuff in that forum, see what people want, and see if Clash will deliver.

Closer to home, there are many old threads from the early days of Clash (like this one). You could dig through those and see if there is anything useful that might have been forgotten about.

Or you could learn to program . . .

[Richard Bruns]

Random Comments:

Computer programming is one of those things that I always wanted to learn but never had time or reason to. Currently I can only program in TI-80 series Basic. What would be the best way to go about learning the code and about how long do you think it would take? Currently about 90% of my free time, or about three hours a day, is spent keeping up with the project and working on the tech tree and algorithms for research progress (which will be posted soon, I promise). But after the model has been fixed mathematically, I might have more time.

I think that we should put a lot of thought into the models before anything gets coded. This is especially true if programmer time is scarce.

Axi: Your role as roving questioner is useful. New ideas are needed and model people can't be allowed to forget the connections between models.

[Lord God Jinnai]

Or you could learn to program . . .
----
I've tried, believe me I've tried. I can understand it with a few remarks if someone shows me it, but I can't do it myself. I'm just not of that type mindset to do programing.