Tech Research Chart 2

[Richard Bruns]

Another very important innovation was the telephone, something that civ 2 does not even include. The telephone revolutionized society in many of the the same ways that computers will. The same is true for radio and television.

But it is true that computers allow completely new ways of doing things. To simulate the contstant improvement of computers, I think it should be a Basic Tech that rises in percentage. Then there are other techs like Networking that require Computers X%. These techs would have a huge impact on society.

For example, I would guess that there are maybe 50 people on Earth that are really interested in making a good game that models human history and lets a player control a civilization and compete with a good AI and other people. If the Internet didn't exist, a Project like Clash would never be possible.

The social model will have to see a change in the modern era as communities develop around almost every concievable idea.

PS I think it would be fun to sneak an 'Easter Egg' into Clash. If you get a Really high score and have a thriving computerized society, you get a message saying that a group of people has created a game called, "Clash of Civilizations."

[Lord God Jinnai]

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Well, don't get me wrong, I like computers alot and think they're a really important innovation, but IMO they're not Nearly as important as Agriculture. I think industrialization easily beats computers for its importance. For one thing, no industrialization, no computers. Probably there are others too.
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It is true that industrialization was a major breakthrough, one of the top ten i'd say, but i think they ranked computers higher because they've impaceted almost every facet of life from games, to messages, to bussiness, to well its hard to name what hasn't been afected. I'm also saying that because it affects everyone on the planet, even people who don't know what they are. Industrialization took much longer to achieve that. There are other reasons and there it is highly opened to debate. Some say the internet is the greatest leap forward ever because it created a "whole new reality".

Anyway if u get right down to it, all things were possible because of language.

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What I meant was that you would get certain technologies automatically when particular basic techs get to a certain level. These "embedded" technologies might allow you to build new things just like single tech advancements. An example might be that Civil Engineering 15% would mean you've achieved the technology for Aqueducts. no other techs would be required, once you get to 15% you can build them. It would IMO add some excitement to the basic techs, and give us a place to put some techs that aren't "first string".
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Sounds fine. I don't know about that particular tech. I think we should also limit these though.

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Another very important innovation was the telephone, something that civ 2 does not even include. The telephone revolutionized society in many of the the same ways that computers will. The same is true for radio and television.
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Yea the telephone was quite inportant, but didn't change the world in quite the same impact. Radio and TV were, but again not as much. I guess this is one way to figure out what techs were most important in civilization mark

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PS I think it would be fun to sneak an 'Easter Egg' into Clash. If you get a Really high score and have a thriving computerized society, you get a message saying that a group of people has created a game called, "Clash of Civilizations."
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Yea i would have liked to one myself having to do why i use this nickname. I guess it would be the ultimate tech of "interdimentional travel" since well...just check out "El Hazard: The Wanderers" on the web. Its an anime and i'm the main villian. hehe

I was going to put someting a pic of that place and say on your first successful try you open a way to a world called El Hazard. I'd ask AIC before doing this to make sure of course.
[This message has been edited by Lord God Jinnai (edited November 19, 1999).]

[Mark_Everson]

Just a few observations that will Hopefully help...

1) By Culture we're not talking exclusively about 'high culture', rather its the kind of culutre that cultural anthropologists study. The whole big thing. Desire for investment in education, what the language is (for how well you communicate with other civs), whether soldiering is one of the highest callings or one of the lowest...

I strongly believe the Culture in Clash Should influence tech. It will IMO make for a richer environment and more complicated and nuanced strategy as LGJ said. You Will Not be able to play the same cookie-cutter strategy every time. Even if you pick the same culture, the cultures around you will be different, and they will affect your tech through diffusion of ideas differently.

2) Cultures Evolve. The player can Try to channel the evolution in certain ways, and it will also evolve all by itself. The Mongols, after conquering a region, in frequently as little as one or two generations absorbed much of the 'city culture' from those they conquered. They no longer had the same culture as those Mongols who continued to live pastorally on the steppes.

[Richard Bruns]

LGJ Quote #1:
There are certain peoples who are better at some things than at others.

LGJ Quote #2:
There are just some things FE the british wouldn't be able to do as well as the chinese and vise versa.

LGJ Quote #3:
People can and do change...

LGJ Quote #4:
Not only that, but the mindset of the people was changed. Then after the occupation, it was changed again in only 1, count it, 1, gerneration.
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I totally agree with Quotes 3 and 4. Cultural abilities are not inherent. People can change and all people have the ability to change to something new.

Yet you also keep saying that a culture has the same adavantages and disadvantages for thoudands of years, as evidenced by Quotes 1 and 2. How do you know that one generatiion from now the British mindset and culture will not be exactly like the Chinese? Then there might be no difference between the abilities of the two people.

You also said that the Vikings were better at seafaring. This is true. But WHY are they better at seafaring? Is it genetic? Or is it because they have experience with sea travel? Suppose the Vikings invaded inland Europe and settled down. Now suppose that someone else invaded their original homeland. The Vikings have now lost contact with the ocean. Will they still be better at developing seafaring technologies?

The cultural abilities model seems to say "Viking=Sea Tech +X%." This means that they would still develop such technologies faster even if they had no way of reaching the ocean. The abilities of a civilization should depend on where they live and what situation they have been facing.

I am saying that all people have the ability to do all things equally. They will have cultural advantages/disadvantages, but those should be based on geography and game history, not an arbitrary definition.

I personally would like to start with a 'blank slate' and have my people not have any attribute that affects game mechanics. But I understand that some people want to start with a different culture. However, the people should have the ability to change so that they can become anything.
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And how's that? Ur model could have the very same flaws only in differnt way.
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My model simply says that if the people decide to do something, they do it. The Europeans simply start to climb the tech tree. Their history is not held against them.

If two civilizations are at the same place on the tech tree and the people live in similar circumstances, they should have an equal chance to advance. There should not be an inherent modifier that changes their abilities.

[Richard Bruns]

PS:
Glak and Mark posted while I was composing my reply, so I didn't see the last two posts until my message went through.

I agree entirely with Glak. My original idea was all technologies are the same, but certain ideas given a different covering to add flavor.

The definition of culture that I was using was, "Artistic and Religious preference." I did not mean it to be the attitudes of the people about current social issues. Sorry for the confusion; I should have been clearer.

[Kull]

Re: Computers vs. Industrial Revolution (a few thoughts on grouping)

Physical Power & Speed: A man is limited in his physical accomplishments by the strength of his body. You can do more with groups, but it's expensive and time-consuming. Harness an animal (horse/ox) and one man can do far more work (and travel faster). You can gain some improvements by using more animals, but the gains level off pretty quickly (ie you can't plow twice as much land with two horses and your chariot won't go twice as fast, etc). I'm generalizing, so bear with me. The Industrial Revolution was a major step forward, because 1) machines gave us the first power & speed boost since the domestication of animals and 2) you COULD achieve dramatic improvements in power and speed by making better machines. Technology was better than biology, in that respect.

Information: Mankind has progressed in a similar fashion in this area. From oral we soon proceeded to written, and languished there for a time. Information transmission was closely linked to physical speed. Inventions such as a series of hilltop beacons and carrier pigeons could improve upon the man/horse limitation, but they never entered the mainstream. The printing press was a major storage advance because we could duplicate information much faster, but it didn't address the speed problem. Not until the telegraph was information liberated from the physical transmission prison. To a large extent, the telephone, radio, and tv were simply improvements upon that principle. Although important from a storage perspective, the computer was hailed largely because of it's information manipulation capabilities. The Internet features it all: Speed, storage, and manipulation.

Genetics: From a Clash standpoint, this one is just too recent to have much impact. But it is a NEW revolution, albeit one with elements of both the physical and the informational.

But there's more. Until now, it's always been necessary to have a human at the controls. Whether running the machines or working the phones. The incredible miracle that lies ahead will come from the merging of the information and industrial revolutions. Machines operated by computers. Designed by them. No longer subject to the physical or informational limitations of the human operator or user. Think of it. The two fundamental human revolutions combined, for the first time. And the Genetic one will undoubtedly merge in the very near future. As we begin to dip our toes in this new ocean, we can barely conceive of all that is to come.

You may want to structure the tech tree accordingly.
[This message has been edited by Kull (edited November 20, 1999).]

[Lord God Jinnai]

I know its kinda early for this, but i was thinking we should have a few (no more than 4) secret techs. These should be hard to get, though i don't how we'd impliment them except no cheating.

[Glak]

As far as humans go agriculture and writing are more important, they really changed the way we live. However I think as far as the world goes computers are more important. In the far future when cyborgs evolve into pure robots humans will only be remembered as a transitionary stage between flesh and steel (or more likely plastic or something like that) Just a note I am not talking some sort of horrible robot revolution, people won't even notice the changes. I mean people wear glasses to augment their vision and clothing to augment their skin.

[Lord God Jinnai]

These last post were kinda getting a little beyond what clash will ptob get to, but who knows? This project is far from complete and in a year much can change.

Also,on genetics, there has been much more done than u think and it will affect clash. Also i may impliment another tech after neural grafting (if u seen my tech model u know what i'm talking about somewhat). I would be bioelectronics. This is where part of the "electronics" and such are intrigrated with biomaterial more a "harmonious" existance, not just grafted on, but an itertwined relationship like our neural pathways react with the rest of our body.

Anyway i think i now have the four, well 5 right now, "secret techs" Dimetional Travel (as listed earlier with my easter egg), the former paragraph, bioelectronics, mater/energy conversion, Discovery of Psionics, and light speed travel. Of course all are very much so up for debate, but with there is atleast inconclusive evidence for all these. BTW if u have any ideas let me know and any final descions i don't want posted on this forum and/or in the tech chart because they wouldn't be secret then.

[Kanzid Stonebreath]

I don't think that there should be hidden techs, because as soon as somone completes the game there will be a list of techs posted to places on the web.

[Lord God Jinnai]

I know eventually there going to be known, but for a while they won't and these will be extremely hard to get so someone prob won't find them that easily.

[alms66]

I personally don't think hidden techs should be included either. They add in sci-fi but this is a representation of history, not a sci-fi game. I say if it hasn't happened or if it isn't about to happen, don't include it.

[Glak]

I think it doesn't matter. I'm sure this issue can be debated at a later time.

[Lord God Jinnai]

Well anyway this will have a lot to do with atleast the near future since we won't stop at 2000 i think and also a civ might develope more in one tech than has been done in our history.

[Mark_Everson]

On the future tech thing...

LGJ, I know you're all for it, but I personally think anything beyond what is available now should only be available when The Player desires for that option to be selected. So although the tech tree Should accommodate going into the near future... IMO Many players will want it pruned.

One more shot at a Unified Basic Tech scale...

That is the same scale used for ancient "modern" basic techs. Perhaps it's irrational, but I'd like to have the same zero-100% + scale for All the basic techs. So electronics might Start at 65%, but otherwise would be on the same scale as Architecture which started at 0%. One reason I'd like to do this is then a player's tech level could be handled graphically easily on the zero-100% scale. If everything were "equally" advanced you'd see a flat line across all techs. A bulge in an area would allow immediate visual recognition (say if basic techs are color coded) of where a competitor is ahead. Also, if everything is on the same scale, an Overall tech level can be easily expressed. Although the percent scale itself is un-exciting, and we should probably think of something better.