Demo 8.1 Goals and Plan

[LDiCesare]

Letting the player select is also possible but you have to type the figures. A drop-down requires only two clicks. Which do you prefer? Both are about the same to code.

[alms66]

Ideally? Both.
Immediately? Player-specified.

[Lord God Jinnai]

Migrants - I have a few problems with them.

1. How fast do they move? I mean if they're leaving my civ for another civ, I could then easily kill them.
2. How much population do they represent? Say i did attack them, would they all die?
3. Say I attacked them, would any of them make it to the end location? Would the remaining few settle in the area? Would they split up?
4, How often does it recalculate the path? I mean in a few turns the map can change. They may no longer like the original location. Some obviously would stay, because they don't feel like keeping wandering, but maybe not all or even most of them will.

Explorers - I like the idea. but it needs some work.
1. Often explorers were sent on specific missions, sometimes they failed, sometimes they were partily successful, sometimes theyn were successful, smetimes they were found out more info than needed. Also time varied, especially if they happened to accidently go somewhere they weren't meaning to and had to find another way back, sometimes without the original exploerer.
However, eventually if its an out-and-out failure, we should let the player know.
2. Often these explorations cost lots of money, especially later on. While shoveling money on an explorer shouldn't make a guarantee, giving them more money to outfit the expedition should improve the chances.
3. As i said before, often i may want a specific region explorered or exploration for a specific resource, not just random exploration.
4. I agree military units shouldn't be used for exploration. However if we don't (and its quite easy simply don't give them the ability to see or move in areas that are undiscovered, then we run into a problem when there's a war with a nation we don't know much about. As you said, this would be the time military units would be a kind of explorer, but they, like any explorer wouldn't know where to go exactly. The problem is, this could be exploited if its not done carefully to have the player go to war and then use military units to explore completely unrelated places. However if the player isn't given the possibility to use his militarty units for explortation here, he has to spend costly money and time on an explorer than might fail, being very unhistoric, and possibly allowing the other nation to overtake him while he can't do anything but defend.

[demipomme]

Originally posted by Lord God Jinnai
Migrants - I have a few problems with them.

1. How fast do they move? I mean if they're leaving my civ for another civ, I could then easily kill them.

Movement would be perhaps equivalent to moving siege machinery, but then they might have horses like the mongolians and move reasonably fast. Killing them is fine.

Originally posted by Lord God Jinnai

2. How much population do they represent? Say i did attack them, would they all die?

They would represent a variable amount of population. The death rate in combat could be calculated using existing combat modelling.

Originally posted by Lord God Jinnai

3. Say I attacked them, would any of them make it to the end location? Would the remaining few settle in the area? Would they split up?

That would depend on normal combat modelling. If you attack the migrant with a big army, then many die. Splitting of the migrant would need to be modelled.

Originally posted by Lord God Jinnai

4, How often does it recalculate the path? I mean in a few turns the map can change. They may no longer like the original location. Some obviously would stay, because they don't feel like keeping wandering, but maybe not all or even most of them will.

Obviously this would need modelling, but it could be relatively simple.

Originally posted by Lord God Jinnai

simply don't give them the ability to see or move in areas that are undiscovered

Rather than preventing military units exploring it would make sense to make it more cost effective to use explorers (this is more realistic too).

[alms66]

Originally posted by demipomme
Rather than preventing military units exploring it would make sense to make it more cost effective to use explorers (this is more realistic too).

That was my general intention.

[Lord God Jinnai]

Originally posted by alms66

That was my general intention.

That won't likely fly because people in these games prefer guaranteed results if they can get them rather than spending money they figure only has a chance off success.

And if you make the success rate high, well then its very easy to explore most of the world early on.

[Lord God Jinnai]

Originally posted by demipomme Movement would be perhaps equivalent to moving siege machinery, but then they might have horses like the mongolians and move reasonably fast. Killing them is fine.

Well in theory that would be okay, but really such mass migrations are only as fast as the slowest person they're willing to wait for.

Originally posted by demipomme They would represent a variable amount of population. The death rate in combat could be calculated using existing combat modelling.

That would depend on normal combat modelling. If you attack the migrant with a big army, then many die. Splitting of the migrant would need to be modelled.

Well the variable rate has its good and bad points, but i guess more good than bad.

Still since even moderate force can take out a mass of civilinans (yes there likely will be some militarily trained people in the group, but its not the same as a military unit) this could happen quite often, especially before the introduction of War Crimes.

Originally posted by demipomme Obviously this would need modelling, but it could be relatively simple.

Well every turn doesn't need to be done every 3 turns might be good number and also when they arrive, no matter what turn it is.

On other thing...this obviously covers large scale migrations, but most migrations aren't that way...so i think that type of migration should take priority for implemenation.

[alms66]

Originally posted by Lord God Jinnai
That won't likely fly because people in these games prefer guaranteed results if they can get them rather than spending money they figure only has a chance off success.

And if you make the success rate high, well then its very easy to explore most of the world early on.

People may prefer guaranteed results, but if it cost 20 times as much to move a military unit out than to move an explorer out, wouldn't you rather take 20 chances with decent success than 1 with certain success? Even if only 1/4 comes back, thats four times as much map uncovered for the same amount of money, granted it's just an example.

[Lord God Jinnai]

Originally posted by alms66

People may prefer guaranteed results, but if it cost 20 times as much to move a military unit out than to move an explorer out, wouldn't you rather take 20 chances with decent success than 1 with certain success? Even if only 1/4 comes back, thats four times as much map uncovered for the same amount of money, granted it's just an example.

It depends. If I'm not caring to much what I explore than yes, but if i am, such as in a war, then its different. Plus there is a time lag which in a war can be very devasting.

[demipomme]

Historically, most geographical information was gathered from travellers and traders. This information was usually free and up to date. Modelling this alongside explorers and espionage would negate exploring with military units.

[alms66]

Originally posted by Lord God Jinnai
It depends. If I'm not caring to much what I explore than yes, but if i am, such as in a war, then its different. Plus there is a time lag which in a war can be very devasting.

I highly doubt that exploration during war will be a top priority. Spying and Scouting, sure, but this does not cover either.

[Lord God Jinnai]

Originally posted by alms66

I highly doubt that exploration during war will be a top priority. Spying and Scouting, sure, but this does not cover either.

It depends on if you even know what the region is. If an enemy with an unkown land attacks you, and you repel the attack, then yes exploration to find this enemy would be a top priority, especially if then sent another wave of attackers.

However, if you can model it the way demipomme mentioned, without giving too much, ie mostly bits and pieces especially of unexplored areas further away or less traveled, then it might be okay.

[alms66]

Originally posted by Lord God Jinnai
It depends on if you even know what the region is. If an enemy with an unkown land attacks you, and you repel the attack, then yes exploration to find this enemy would be a top priority, especially if then sent another wave of attackers.

However, if you can model it the way demipomme mentioned, without giving too much, ie mostly bits and pieces especially of unexplored areas further away or less traveled, then it might be okay.

If he's close enough to launch an attack, most likely you'll already know where he's at through your merchant's previous trading for province maps or explorers you sent out prior to the attack.

[alms66]

Originally posted by Lord God Jinnai
On other thing...this obviously covers large scale migrations, but most migrations aren't that way...so i think that type of migration should take priority for implemenation.

Actually no it doesn't just cover large scale migrations. The migrant could just as easily be 4 people as it can be 4000 people.

[alms66]

Originally posted by demipomme
Historically, most geographical information was gathered from travellers and traders. This information was usually free and up to date. Modelling this alongside explorers and espionage would negate exploring with military units.

As I mentioned before, merchants purchase maps to model this sort of thing. It's free to the player, but not to the merchant.