Demo 8.1 Goals and Plan

[Mark_Everson]

This thread is hereby reserved for discussion of only Demo 8.1, and perhaps 8.2. For that reason the scope should be limited to things that we can probably achieve in the next few weeks to a month. For discussion of longer-term plans including a walk to Demo 9, please use the Demo 9 Overall Approach thread. If those of you who have already made posts on longer-term planning aspects here could transfer them over to the Demo 9 thread, I would greatly appreciate it. If you want to copy over posts that summarize discussion of given topics contributed to by several individuals, that would be even better.

[b]An emerging and tentative demo 8.1 plan[\b]

I am going to sketch out what I perceive of the outlines of a plan so far, so that people can propose additions, deletions, and modifications. I will grab different things freely from different peoples posts, and might forget to attribute them to an individual. This will work out fine if we just remember that all Good ideas are mine, and lesser ideas belong to others. I won't attempt to prioritize these yet, but simply present them as a list. I would like a target getting this out sometime in January. Laurent especially is overworked in this plan, but I will rely on him to say if it is too much, and what should be cut. Others, do you feel you have the right amount of things to do, too much, too little?

AI (Laurent)
-Checking ai siege and reinforcement code.
-AI for naval units including loading and unloading land units
-AI for exploration
-order to pursue/attack particular enemy TF
-AI knows to attack province capitals
some start on an over all military AI including fronts (demo 8.2?)
-some start on overall planning [The ai would be much better if it had a high level planning that decided whether subplans should be explore and defend, attack and defend, attack explore and defend, and what in what proportion. Add in shifting economic stance from peace time to war time eventually] (demo 8.2?)

Military (Laurent)
-refine city wall availability, cost and effect
-supply level affects movement rate (can be offset by forraging which can damage economy)

Tutorials (alms)
-overall intro (Dawn)
-economy, military, government/social, and technology

Diplomacy (Vovan, Laurent)
Some diplomacy with the ai to handle it. Simple ways to handle war to peace and peace to war transition. adjust depending on what Vovan thinks he can achieve

technology (alms, Mark, Laurent)
more complete ancient Tech tree. As has been pointed out many technologies will need game functions before they are interesting to the player. Integrate technology changes better with economics and social models, and modify military model as needed. Take ten to twenty technologies that currently have no effects and give them game effects

Government and social models (Laurent, Mark, alms)
Enhancing social model code. Give all government social policies meaning in terms of economic productivity, technological development rate, military effectiveness, and in other areas as appropriate.

Economy (Mark)
-outline rudimentary economic AI to handle war to peace transitions, and perhaps several different philosophies of economic development.
-population growth depends on more than food (infrastructure, medicine level, etc.)
-real military supply system, food for troops comes from somewhere identifiable, supplying troops outside of civ becomes expensive (8.2?)
-economic effects of troops and battles, pillaging...
-use return-on-investment criteria to produce a right-sized army with few player orders

Scenario editor (Gary)
progresses as time is available (demo 8.2?)

Miscellaneous (TBD)
City Creation Ability (founding cities at least, but automated creation would be extra gravy). One thing that could be done is to automatically chose cities as capitals of provinces instead of the current system (when a province is lost). Plus relocating capital by the ai.

Graphics
-show provincial and civ capitals on map (star in civ color or something)
-rivers and lakes (8.2?)

[edit: copy plan from lower in the thread to top]

[Mark_Everson]

reserved for future use, FE feature requests.

The MGT

[Mark_Everson]

As food for thought, here is an old planning thread called Demo 7.3 thru Demo 8 Proposed Plan that in turn has links to some older planning threads. Some of the stuff discussed has already been done or superceeded, but much remains relevant. The discussins there might get us through demo 9 at this point.

[alms66]

After looking through the old threads, I see these as being high priority (though in no particular order):

1. Rivers, lakes, ports, ships, boarding etc.
2. A much improved AI (I've seen the AI do some really stupid things, plus it needs to learn how to settle and handle its infrastructure goals without guidance from the scenario designer).
3. The start of an on-line help system.
4. Much larger tech tree with more Applications and Activities.
5. Limited diplomacy model & Expand Social/Government/Riot model (Clash has focused on Military and Economy for far too long now, sadly, I also feel that these two need the most overhauling).
6. Save Files
7. New GUI for Economy and Technology

And my own list (in addition to the graphical requests):
1. Proper random map games. (I've got a detailed proposal on civ-placement for this, though it requires rivers and lakes, when the time comes).
2. Barbarians! (Actually, I prefer to call them Natives. I've also got a detailed proposal on this).
3. Scenario Editor.
4. Explorer Unit (I've got details ...)
5. Settler Unit (details...)
6. Resource (special) quantities (so I can trade 30 units of silk for 100 units of timber).
7. City Creation Ability (founding cities at least, but automated creation would be extra gravy).

[alms66]

This post is to move the discussion about the mini-tutorial scenarios I mentioned here.

The Tutorials
Tutorial 1 - The Basics*
Tutorial 2 - Economy
Tutorial 3 - Government/Social/Riot**
Tutorial 4 - Military
Tutorial 5 - Technology
...
Final Tutorial - Dawn of Civilization (this is the Dawn scenario) - Mark may want to handle the changes in this one, and I don't have a problem with that if so.

*This scenario will give general interface layout advice. It will assume that you've never played Clash before, thus most people could safely skip it.
**Can someone think of a single word to cover this? Would 'Government' be sufficient for everyone?

Tutorials 2-5+ will detail every feature of the model it represents. For example, the Military tutorial will cover moving units, organizing TFs, sieges, etc.

[LDiCesare]

It's probably better to do military just after economics because riots cause the creation of units and you may want to fight them.
I otherwise agree with all that you said, though settler/explorer I don't get without the details.

[Mark_Everson]

Thanks for synthesizing that list Alms. I'll respond on that in more detail later. For the moment 4,6, and 7 on your list look to me like reasonable things to get into d8.1. To that I would add having the AI understand some how to use ships, a more strategic AI (FE which front to attack, and how to apportion troops between defence and offense), and maybe some economic AI. Perhaps a simple way to change diplomatic states would also be good. [Vovan will be working on Diplomacy in the background, and Gary is continuing on the Scenario Editor, but we don't know timing on either.] I may have too much here already, but at least it's a discussion starter. Laurent, what do you envision as next steps in AI?

Tutorials:

I still think it would be a lot better to just have the current Dawn be the basic intro tutorial that the player sees first. It already serves that purpose, and doesn't really need to change too much. Why re-invent the wheel? Just add as needed, and pull out some of the details and put them in the more in-depth subject tutorials.

I fear that if we front-load with a lot of details (really starting with Economy) we will lose people. This way Dawn is a teaser to rope people in a bit, and then the specifics on models can be fed to them in compelling scenarios where using the part of the game that is brought to the front. However, while the focus topic is of primary importance in each tutorial, it shouldn't be the only thing there IMO. I think the social tutorial is a good model with its mix of military and social aspects. Starting the way you have it with Economy alone, I'm not sure what a good compelling scenario might be. But if you add a little military action as a reason to advance and grow the economy, then it's more interesting. If you want to write out the story that you want to tell on Economy like in the Reworking our Demo Approach thread, maybe I'll get your idea better.

After a broad but shallow intro with Dawn, the specific tutorials need to be somewhat interesting games, or we will again lose playtesters. At the end, I see no need for an overall tutorial, but that the player should shift into a real Game that starts with a civ being founded. We haven't quite got all the game infrastructure and AI to pull this off yet, but we're getting close!

[vovan]

I agree with Mark on the tutorials. I mean, one of the goals of the game, as I understand it, is to allow the player to go into deep management of certain aspects of the empire, but at the same time, if the player so desires, he can leave the details for the AI to handle, and only set general directions of development in the areas he is not too interested in.

Therefore, I think it makes sense to structure the tutorials similarly. In the one tutorial (ie Dawn), you have the general overview of the most basic features that every player will have to use: like, moving units, giving out build orders, etc. Then, for people interested in going in depth for specific models, you have your specific tutorials, where you drill down into the dark depths of micromanagement and show the player how to tune the performance of his empire in that one area in the finest detail.

In other words, I don't think we should bundle the vital basics in the same tutorials as the ones that have in-depth details.

As far as the goals are concerned, could we maybe make a table out of them, showing who is working on what, and also the priorities of the goals, kind of like with the bugs: what needs to be done now, and what we think can be left till later.

[LDiCesare]

A detailed answer, starting with alms'quotes:

2. A much improved AI (I've seen the AI do some really stupid things, plus it needs to learn how to settle and handle its infrastructure goals without guidance from the scenario designer).

The ai currently relies a lot on xml scripting, for instance to segregate between attack and defense goals. Allowing it to handle separate fronts would be a good thing. (A scenario to test that would be needed.) Another one would be to allow the ai to handle some diplomacy and to improve the way it handles its policies. I must also check how it simulates fights versus a walled square. I should also manage the way reinforcements are sent in a better way and avoid them circling around... Giving goals to ships is not that hard, but then loading and unloading look slightly buggy, so they should be fixed first...
Please tell me things you find stupid that the ai did so I can fix them (there's an AI thread somewhere).

4. Much larger tech tree with more Applications and Activities.

This one is definitely much needed.

5. Limited diplomacy model & Expand Social/Government/Riot model (Clash has focused on Military and Economy for far too long now, sadly, I also feel that these two need the most overhauling).

Some diplomacy is a must.
Riot and government models can also be increased. Currently, riots are limited in kind, and some produce units when, per the model, they shouldn't (bad policies should not but ethnic discrimination should). More riots can be included from the model. But then again, the policies should have real effect. That is: Slavery, foreign policy, are currently meaningless figures.

6. Save Files

This is probbaly the most important, but Gary is tackling it (even with a detour by the scenario editor).

1. Proper random map games. (I've got a detailed proposal on civ-placement for this, though it requires rivers and lakes, when the time comes).

This would be nice, but without save game it's a bit useless.

4. Explorer Unit (I've got details ...)
5. Settler Unit (details...)

I'd like the details here. In my opinion, explorers shouldn't be units in ly opinion. You should be able to walk units around neutral land, but that requires diplomacy which allows to declare war and peace, plus probably stuff like rights of passage. And then trade and spying should provide automatic scouting/exploration.
As for settlers, I like our current system.

6. Resource (special) quantities (so I can trade 30 units of silk for 100 units of timber).

This is part of the diplomacy from my point of view.

7. City Creation Ability (founding cities at least, but automated creation would be extra gravy).

One thing that could be done is to automatically chose cities as capitals of provinces instead of the current system (when a province is lost). Plus relocating capital by the ai.

That list has a big problem, though. It's big. Depending on who else chooses to do what, I would do the following in terms of priorities (susceptible to change at any whim):
-Checking ai siege and reinforcement code.
-Some diplomacy with the ai to handle it.
-Enhancing social model code.

[alms66]

Perhaps Dawn should not be labeled 'final tutorial', but 'overview tutorial' instead? I hope no one is misunderstanding me here. I do agree that Dawn is the big overview tutorial and is meant to suck players in. These new tutorial scenarios are meant to lighten the load of Dawn, by drilling down into the nitty-gritty details, as Vovan suggests. They are not meant to suck in new players, but rather to teach all the details to those that have been sucked in.

Laurent, you're probably right about the military one, so I'll switch it.

Regarding the size of the list, I agree it's much to large for 8.1, but if we could do one or two of these per release from 8.1 to 9.0, finishing all 14 by demo 9.0, we could have a long range plan here.

AI
The two main gripes on the AI's boneheaded decisions at this time are that it fails to go for the kill when it's got the upper hand and it very often does absolutely nothing, when it should be doing something.

Just last night I ran Jericho on computer only, and about 50 turns in all the AI's sent their units home and stopped attacking each other. What's that about? Did they get bored?

Tech Tree
I'm working on this, but I find it extremely difficult. At present the only thing the techs are really good for (from the player’s viewpoint) are to grant new units, so I have to trim large sections of the tree of all these 'useless' technologies.

Save Games, Scenario Editor & Random Maps
I'd rate the editor as the most important, as the save game should be little more than the saved scenario and current state + History. As random maps go hand-in-hand with the scenario editor, IMO, they rank the same.

Settler Unit
This is most likely not what you were expecting. Instead of teleporting population from one tile to another when migration occurs, create a settler unit, which then moves and settles its desired destination. I'd like to be able to watch the flow of people as they move about my empire. Currently, migration is fairly random it seems, but it's really cool to invade a tile and watch 20 settlers pick up and leave because of the war.

Explorer Unit
The explorer unit is commissioned like others, though it is much different. It has a move of 1, and a lifespan of 10 (that is it can move 10 unexplored squares before becoming inactive). Once the explorer becomes inactive, it transforms into a settler, and moves home to settle down. We'll have to decide whether we want settlers to be "attackable" or not. I decided no for EIT, but yes provides more interesting possibilities.

Note that technologies improve both the movement and lifespan of the explorer.

Now, the above does little good, without a few changes to exploration. Military units are not explorers and should not be used as such. It should be very expensive to move a unit out of your territory (maintaining the supply chain), making most players not use military units for such purposes. An explorer unit does not have this added expense, though it has other limitations. Tiles explored by military units remain forever explored, while tiles explored by explorers do not (unless the given tile has been explored 3 times). The tiles explored by explorers are logged, and 20 turns after the explorer unit that 'viewed' them became inactive, the tiles are reset to unexplored (unless it's the third time). This gives the player a limited window in which to set up a permanent presence in the area.

Although this sounds like it adds a great deal to micromanage, an auto-explore command makes it quite painless. So how does a player gather permanent maps of the world around him without conquering the world? He can trade for maps through diplomacy (active map trading) or his merchants can buy maps of provinces to open up new markets (passive map trading). Merchants will have to know that the investment is worth it in the long run.

Note that his active trade routes also kept tiles in a permanent fog-of-war for the player.

Some people may not like the idea of maps vanishing like this, but it adds a new dimension to exploration, making it more of a strategic decision, not to mention slowing the unveiling of the world map like nothing I've ever seen before. Units suddenly finding themselves surrounded by unexplored tiles are in for a big surprise too. That cut supply line spells almost certain doom!

Originally posted by LDiCesare
This is part of the diplomacy from my point of view.

Actually, that's not quite right. It does affect diplomacy, but it would also effect trading (merchants), and more importantly, the information available to the player. If the player could see that 30 units of iron were transported to the Germans from his own empire, he could shut it down before attacking them. It also has ramifications for units and infrastructure. The cost of a unit could then be 1 man + 1 unit of timber + 1 unit of iron, while the cost of a unit of infrastructure might be 5 units of stone + 4 units of timber + 2 units of marble. This also implies stockpiling of resources is possible.

[LDiCesare]

(I answered about the ai in the relevant thread).
I like neither settlers nor explorers. Settlers would just clutter the map. in my opinion. If you want to settle somewhere, commission some units, add population and move them. The random part disappears, but then migration cannot in real life be controlled by the powers that be, so having our random uncontrolled migration is something I like.
About explorers: Losing part of the map is definitely something I shall never code. It's just bait for "let me write the map on a paper please". Making an explorer unit with low supply cost and low attck/defense scores is entirely possible right now. Even making it with a small amount of personnel and pitiful morale you would achieve most of what you describe, except the 10 turns limit. This limit I can understand as "amount of supplies you carried" but I am also pretty sure I would rant if my unit reached the limit one turn before it had reached the spot I wanted it to go to.
As for trading specials, these specials should first have some kind of effect before they can be traded (unless they are all general "luxuries" as what you traded in civ). The econ model and code makes for exchanges and merchants, but I'm not familiar with it.

[Mark_Everson]

I have posted the following up top. I have also putting it here so that everyone will see it...

This thread is hereby reserved for discussion of only Demo 8.1, and perhaps 8.2. For that reason the scope should be limited to things that we can probably achieve in the next few weeks to a month. For discussion of longer-term plans including a walk to Demo 9, please use the Demo 9 Overall Approach thread. If those of you who have already made posts on longer-term planning aspects here could transfer them over to the Demo 9 thread, I would greatly appreciate it. If you want to copy over posts that summarize discussion of given topics contributed to by several individuals, that would be even better.

Once a coherent plan for Demo 8.1 emerges from our discussions, I will post it at the top of the thread.

[Mark_Everson]

tentative demo 8.1 plan

An emerging and tentative demo 8.1 plan

I am going to sketch out what I perceive of the outlines of a plan so far, so that people can propose additions, deletions, and modifications. I will grab different things freely from different peoples posts, and might forget to attribute them to an individual. This will work out fine if we just remember that all Good ideas are mine, and lesser ideas belong to others. I won't attempt to prioritize these yet, but simply present them as a list. I would like a target getting this out sometime in January. Laurent especially is overworked in this plan, but I will rely on him to say if it is too much, and what should be cut. Others, do you feel you have the right amount of things to do, too much, too little?

AI (Laurent)
-Checking ai siege and reinforcement code.
-AI for naval units including loading and unloading land units
-AI for exploration
-order to pursue/attack particular enemy TF
-AI knows to attack province capitals
some start on an over all military AI including fronts (demo 8.2?)
-some start on overall planning [The ai would be much better if it had a high level planning that decided whether subplans should be explore and defend, attack and defend, attack explore and defend, and what in what proportion. Add in shifting economic stance from peace time to war time eventually] (demo 8.2?)

Military (Laurent)
-refine city wall availability, cost and effect
-supply level affects movement rate (can be offset by forraging which can damage economy)

Tutorials (alms)
-overall intro (Dawn)
-economy, military, government/social, and technology

Diplomacy (Vovan, Laurent)
Some diplomacy with the ai to handle it. Simple ways to handle war to peace and peace to war transition. adjust depending on what Vovan thinks he can achieve

technology (alms, Mark, Laurent)
more complete ancient Tech tree. As has been pointed out many technologies will need game functions before they are interesting to the player. Integrate technology changes better with economics and social models, and modify military model as needed. Take ten to twenty technologies that currently have no effects and give them game effects

Government and social models (Laurent, Mark, alms)
Enhancing social model code. Give all government social policies meaning in terms of economic productivity, technological development rate, military effectiveness, and in other areas as appropriate.

Economy (Mark)
-outline rudimentary economic AI to handle war to peace transitions, and perhaps several different philosophies of economic development.
-population growth depends on more than food (infrastructure, medicine level, etc.)
-real military supply system, food for troops comes from somewhere identifiable, supplying troops outside of civ becomes expensive (8.2?)
-economic effects of troops and battles, pillaging...
-use return-on-investment criteria to produce a right-sized army with few player orders

Scenario editor (Gary)
progresses as time is available (demo 8.2?)

Miscellaneous (TBD)
City Creation Ability (founding cities at least, but automated creation would be extra gravy). One thing that could be done is to automatically chose cities as capitals of provinces instead of the current system (when a province is lost). Plus relocating capital by the ai.

Graphics
-show provincial and civ capitals on map (star in civ color or something)
-rivers and lakes (8.2?)

[edit: add Misc - City Creation, Military, Graphics, more items under econ]

[alms66]

Originally posted by LDiCesare
I like neither settlers nor explorers. Settlers would just clutter the map. in my opinion. If you want to settle somewhere, commission some units, add population and move them. The random part disappears, but then migration cannot in real life be controlled by the powers that be, so having our random uncontrolled migration is something I like.

You're right to an extent on settlers cluttering the map. What we did was to show the settling as it occurred, one by one, with the option to not display it for those who didn't want it. Personally, I liked seeing the settlers get up and move around.

I also never said I didn't like the current method. In fact it's fine, I just want a visual representation of it. What I did say was that at the moment it's purely random, meaning there are no events causing migration, such as the invasion I mentioned. These settlers are not meant to be under player control, the current model still holds, settlers just visually display the settlement in a more asthetic way than a blob of color appearing on the minimap.

Originally posted by LDiCesare
About explorers: Losing part of the map is definitely something I shall never code. It's just bait for "let me write the map on a paper please". Making an explorer unit with low supply cost and low attck/defense scores is entirely possible right now. Even making it with a small amount of personnel and pitiful morale you would achieve most of what you describe, except the 10 turns limit. This limit I can understand as "amount of supplies you carried" but I am also pretty sure I would rant if my unit reached the limit one turn before it had reached the spot I wanted it to go to.

In practice, it's very rare that you'll actually lose a portion of the map. What happens is you maintain a small group of explorers that continually expand your map. Add to this, merchants purchasing permanent maps, and there were some games where I didn't even bother to actively trade maps.

Now, at the other extreme, imagine you've just been attacked and find yourself facing a superior foe. Obviously, one of the first places to cut expenses to divert money for the war effort is exploration. In these types of situations, where a civ is strapped for cash and cannot maintain explorer groups, then map loss can be more of an issue. It's also more of an issue early in the game, before you've fully put down roots, which I still see as a good thing.

Originally posted by LDiCesare
As for trading specials, these specials should first have some kind of effect before they can be traded (unless they are all general "luxuries" as what you traded in civ). The econ model and code makes for exchanges and merchants, but I'm not familiar with it.

Units and Infrastructure requiring x number of units of a particular resource is enough of an effect for me. I don't think Clash currently supports this though.

[Mark_Everson]

Hey Alms:

Originally posted by alms66
Units and Infrastructure requiring x number of units of a particular resource is enough of an effect for me. I don't think Clash currently supports this though.

I am rather opposed to this approach. My reasoning is as outlined on the Special Commodities section of the econ page. All it does is screw over civilizations that don't have the X needed to build unit Y. Usually in the real world there are work-arounds for any lacking material. If you would like to discuss further, please copy this stuff over to the most recent econ thread and we can go over it there.