Demo 8 near to completion ?

[LDiCesare]

Just note that diagnostic output can already be found in the social.txt file. This really only about UI. I don't think a # would be of any help when representing EGs. Ethnicity should be enough to get a good view.

[alms66]

Originally posted by LDiCesare
I don't like right-click because it's not obvious. I suspect many people never found out you can in fact change capital. I'd rather have a domestic advisor button somewhere between econ and ruler, with maybe the same behaviour as econ (drop down with the choices you mention).
Then the UI of 'list of figures' the way the ruler panel has them would be enough for a start?

It would be nice to have both and adding that little bit of extra code for the right-click isn't that much trouble, it would make a call to the same "showDialog" function passing either civ, province or tile as arguments - or something like that. I'm personally a right-click junkie (tm).

[manurein]

Hi all

There is a game called Victoria, by Paradox (makers of Europa Universalis). Historical game that runs from 1836 to 1920.

Like in Clash they have EGs in their social model (strangely there really are ideas in this game that resemble concepts that have been discussed on this forum for years ...) and they have an interface that may be interesting for you.

I will try to describe it :

- they have three levels like you : nation, region/state, province.
- they have groups of population that are defined by a nationality, a religion and a social status/job (that are labourer, farmer, employee, aristocrat, slave, clergyman, business man and craftsman). those groups of population also have some political / social preferences and problems.

- at the province (tile in Clash) level you have a detailed display of each group of population with every information in text.
- at the other level you have a synthetic information with cheese graphs that show the split of population by nationality, religion and social status/job, political preferences / problems ...

- in the overall UI, there is a map (with layers) on the screen, with a panel on the right and a semi-transparent message board on the bottom. when you click on something on the map (region, province, unit ...) details are displayed on the right panel. There are also three main buttons on the top of the screen :
- a button gives acces to "empire" management : the right panel gives acces to overall information / management of budget, commerce production, politics, social management, diplomacy
- a button gives access to military management
- a button allows the user to browse the empire by region.

OK, I just thought this may give you some ideas for your UI ...

Cheers
Manu

[LDiCesare]

Is Victoria UI actually ergonomic? From the screenshots I saw, that wasn't obvious. If it's actually easy to use and understand, then I will check it more.
How do you get to the intermediary (region/state, province in Clash) level of detail?

[manurein]

Salut Laurent - Hi Laurent

Actually, given the complexity of the game itself, it's difficult to say that Victoria's UI is simple : it is complex. However it is usable.

For a good overview of the Ui with screenshots etc you can check this URL :

http://victoria.nsen.ch/interface_guide/

I'd be very happy to discuss this further with you if you feel it necessary or interesting.

Cheers
Manu

One last request to Mark : I'd be very happy to playtest the beta demo 8. Is it possible ?

[manurein]

Answer to your question :
you have two ways to access the intermediary level :
- on the main screen (map), when you first click a place on the map you access the region level (on your territory); on the second click in the same region you access the province (tile) level
- as stated, you also can access a list of all your regions on the left panel (BTW I made a mistake : what I called the right panel is actually on the left of the screen); when you click an entry of that list you access the region you clicked.

Hope it answers your question (this may be clearer with the help of screenshots).

Manu

[LDiCesare]

I checked that link. Wow, complex it is. In fact, I have started creating a pie chart widget which I want to use to display the proportions of ethnic groups and maybe social classes. Though I don't know if I want to show social classes as tehy are or the breakdown that they induce in terms of political power blocks.
For the testbench, you should ask Mark, but I think he's travelling right now. I can't send it to you either because I'm not home now and am on vacation early july, so I won't be active here before the 10th of july or so.

[manurein]

Thx for this replyu Laurent.
Bonnes vacances.

Manu

[yellowdaddy]

there's definitely some juicy stuff in that Victoria game from the screens... i wonder how much of it might find it's way into Clash - it's quite detailed - a bit like Championship Manager of summat!

[Mark_Everson]

Hi Manu:

We would be very happy for you to playtest Demo 8 when the time is right! Sorry I missed your offer a ways back. I am now doing my first playtest of the D8 code. If you want you could help playtesting almost immediately if you like. The tutorial is ready to go, and we could use early feedback on several other scenarios. Just let us know if you're interested.

Laurent:

I'm not sure what the right place for my discussion is. I am trying the social test scenario now. The "Social" button doesn't give anything at the square, province, or civ level. Nothing pops up, it's like pushing an unconnected button.

The scenario looks very intriguing. You did a good job with it! However. . .

When I try to run the scenario itself rioting at home overpowers me almost immediately. Supply levels for my troops drop almost immediately to near 50%. Even if I adjust the ruler preferences to near the civ average I still get major rioting. It's not that it is challenging, it seems impossible! What am I doing wrong?

[alms66]

Originally posted by Mark_Everson
When I try to run the scenario itself rioting at home overpowers me almost immediately. Supply levels for my troops drop almost immediately to near 50%. Even if I adjust the ruler preferences to near the civ average I still get major rioting. It's not that it is challenging, it seems impossible! What am I doing wrong?

I felt the same way, and still do. It's difficult, too much so. Jericho is the only other scenario I've not beaten to date, but that's due to the "infinite combat in one square" bug I mentioned a while back. Before the first turn starts you have to adjust your ruler preference. I had the exact numbers needed figured out when I was commenting on it before, but I don't really recall what they were now. I had it down to where I could keep rioting from occuring anywhere in my own empire, until I started conquering, then things got hairy.

[Mark_Everson]

Hey alms:

Yeah, we need to watch scenarios in the demos that will make players leave in disgust because they're too tough. I've just gone through the tutorial scenario, and toned down the difficulty a bit. I suspect that needs to be done with several of the other scenarios.

[LDiCesare]

When I try to run the scenario itself rioting at home overpowers me almost immediately.

Actually that's on purpose. I made it so the riots were maximised, so you have to use the ruler panel immediately. I should say so in the opening panel.
You must go the rulers panel and change policies based on what the various political power blocks want.
It's probably not obvious what the faces buttons do or mean. I'll explain it a bit in the main panel. Click the pie icon, you'll see what the political power blocks want, and if you set all policies to that level, you shouldn't have trouble, at least until you conquer Greeks and later on Persians.
As an alternative, you can use the social button which can automate this a bit.
I'll try to explain this more in the opening bulletin.
I'll see what I can do for Jericho. Maybe adding population and one or two units would let the player hold off the ai while they attack them. Or let some civs be at war with one another instead of all against Jericho.

[Mark_Everson]

Hi Laurent:

I set numbers very close to those in the pie graph. IIRC I left taxes around 10% so I could have some support for my armies. I'll try doing the settings precisely the same as specified next time. My objection to this scenario is that the penalty for getting close to the optimal amounts should only give moderate, rather than severe problems. My fear here is that the playtester will get the idea that their hands are complely tied by the social model, rather than it being a moderate challenge.

I tried using the social button, but nothing happened. It's possible there was something buried under the main screen and I didn't see it.

I love the concept, I just think that it needs to be toned down a bit.

[alms66]

I came ridiculously close to beating the social test a few minutes ago. I figured out the perfect settings, which allow you to conquer and pacify all the Greeks, but if you take a Persian square, it's riot city. Set all policies, except the first (taxes) and the last (social policy) to 50. This should allow you to go riot-free while conquering the Greeks. I also set the ruler's power to 70 and all others except "human" and "bureaucracy" to 10, though sometimes I didn't and it seemed to have little effect.

The second key to winning this scenario is road building (I set mine at 5). You have to build roads in all your major squares in order to quickly move about your empire, fending off attacks from the Persians in the east while conquering the Greeks in the south. But, you have to build them at the perfect moments... that is, right before you need them, otherwise, the enemy uses them against you! It would take too long to describe the exact sequence, but here's a hint:
Don't build a road on the flat square adjacent to Persia. - Ever!

No matter how close I came, I couldn't beat it. This has convinced me that we need to add one of two things in to make this winnable:

1. Add a second army about 75% of the power of the current one, and adjust the current one's power down 75%.
-or-
2. Add the ability to build units. As it is now, now matter how high I set the construction input, I never get units built. Is this even intentional?

Personally, I think #2 is the better choice. If #1 were implemented, I think the scenario would be a cakewalk.

As a side note, I actually did beat it once, but I don't know how or why. I was down to 4-6 squares under my control, but still held Pella, which is why I suspect I won, after having conquered all the Greeks and having them taken away by Persia during their onslaught.