The Language Thread

[yellowdaddy]

old threads bunged together - please follow links before spouting

language is usually the first thing that defines an ethinic group .

dialects are when languages evolve into new languages.
, or could be a barrier or advantage in certain negotiations.

imagine you are a European nation, and you are competing with Japan for an important treaty with China, the Japanese are going to have an advantage because they can commuicate more easily.

(I speak Japanese and Chinese, and I know from first hand experience that Jap and Chi people can get the jist of each other's written texts without having to learn the other language)

race and language and religion are often historically important factors in the making or breaking of alliances.
so there are real applications for language.

perhaps it could affect your ability to pacify conquered territory or success in espionage.

culture, and language are also a way of conquering territory without expensive and time-consuming military force.

------

examples of ethnic group mergers -
the English - Celtic ethnic group, germanic language
the French - same
the Turkish - Graeco-Armenian related ethnic group, Central Asian language
the Hungarians - Similar.

language could be more than just a cosmetic feature, but even as just a cosmetic feature - it's nice!


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http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30655&perpage=15&pagenumber=8

i should modify my ideas a little on the second quote - but look at the pan-ethnic movments

pan-arabism, pan-americanism, pan-slavicism, pan-celticism, even the Nazis - i think there should be some room for this kind of nationalist movement in a game where politics is apparently a major feature.

it is complex, when we lok at the current thing in Iraq, most Iraqis are Shia muslims, unlike most of the arab world, but still a sense of ethnic brotherhood, based on language is strong - but yes, Hebrew is also a semitic language, but adifferent one, and their religion is certainly a factor which seperates them from arabs.
in this scenario, to what extent is religion on it's own important? don't Sunni muslims generally feel opposed/suspicious towards Shia Muslims? I think this is an example of Language being a factor - because they all speak the same language the suffering of Iraqi civilians affects the populations of other Arab speaking countries, making them feel more inclined to get involved.

of course, if you are french, i don;t know how you might feel if Quebec, Belgie or Suisse were under attack and you saw french speaking victims, or if Francophone African countries would cause you to fell somehow more of a sense of brotherhood?

one thing i would like to see is an ethnic group divided between two nations - take the Basques for example.

If you were playing as France or Spain and you wanted to eradicate them, desroying their language would be one important way of breaking them. likewise a foreign enemy might seek to provide aid to this ethinc guerilla group to weaken your nation...

can we have guerilla ethnic groups who can become nation potentially? as a feature - so that pacifying ethnic groups becomes an important task lest they become militant and seperatist.

if in the Basque scenario, Spain was at war with france, they might seek to bribe the Basques as a way of getting more territory, ameliorating them with language rights and unification.

......................................

i've heard about recent genetic maps being made of of least europe, but perhaps also much of the world.

showing how that the Welsh are genetically related to the Spanish - strengthening the supposed link between Basques and ancient Picts of Scotland, who were there before the Celts.

that the bulk of Scots English and French are very similar genetically.

the English are overwhelmingly ethnically Celtic with a Roman and German influnce, much like the French, but i think the French have more of a Germaninc and Roman influence. the Scots having some of the Welsh and Irish influence in addition. [yes i over-summarised france - excuse moi!]

what i was talking about is how one ethnic popultaion can be dominated by a ethnically different overlordship.

the Hungarians for example - the closest language to Hungarian is called Khanty-Mansi and is spoken to the northeast of the urals in northern russia. thos people look like eskimos or koreans - hungarians generally look like most central/eastern europeans - but a small number do have asiatic features.

the same is true in Turkey, the people ARE by blood descended from a mixture of Greeks and all the Ancient Hittites and probably elements of Iranina and Armenian Georgian. there are from what i've read a small number - 5%-ish who are mongoloid turks, the remnants of the people who brought the asian turkish language.

anyway, i made a set of faces, and thought, if people do mix a little then not only their language, but their race should be affected.

like in Madagascar - a mix of an Indonesian people with East Africans, many Malagasys look neither Black nor Indonesian, but somewhere inbetween, rather like some Cambodians do.

so this is more like an ambient/cosmetic effect of two groups mixing.
.................

so, practical applications:

well, how can i express it?!

1. i think each language should be researched like a technology, and translators should be a resource like engineers or soldiers - discuss!

2. pan-nationalism - i think nations who exist in a scenario where the communication plausibility exists, so probably we're talkin modern scenarios, pan-nationalism should be a feature where:
a. if counrty A is being attacked by country X, and countries B and C have the same language or a same-laanguage ethic group [should be same for religions too]
then the civilians in countries B and C should protest and potentially becom insurgent to put pressure on their govt. to act in support of country A. [this is rather a topical idea, isn;t it!]

3. languages should provide bonuses or handicaps for negotiations, espionage, cultural conquest, pacifying an enemy.

4. language should be a fetaure of an EG which increases it's potential for insurgency/trerrism, and seperatism, and colluding with an enemy.

.............................

language effects


A. ethnic maps

i'd like to see coloured ethinc and language distribution maps, as an overlay, so you can see where they all are.


B. dialects, language evolution, language splitting,

if your empire is too large and dipersed, then new dialects, languages and hence EG's should emerge - didn't this happen with the Roman Empire?!
[it's sort of happened with the British empire too, but only as far as accents really],


C. language merger:

if you conquer an area with a strong language [i.e. it could be an ethnic groupe divide between many nations but still in total having a large population - take the Kurdish people or the Zhuang in Guanxi for example] then your "governor" language should gradually influence this "governed" language, to create over time a new dialect or language


in my own research on this i grouped east asians thus:

Sumerians:
Sumerians
Elamites
Tiamat
Ki En Gir
Tilmun
Samarra

Semites:
Akkadians
Hebrews
Arabians
Phoenicians
Shebans
Ethiopians

Persians:
Medians
Sarmatians
Parthians
Kurds
Scythians
Farsi/Pathans
Dari
Kassites

(boil down to 6 to fit)


Indians:
Panjabi
Romani
Sinhala
Bangla
Nepali
Hindi

Dravidians:
Tamils
Kannada
Telugu
Kolami
Tulu
Kurux

Tokharians:
Twyry
Gutians
Kushans
Kucheans
Tokharoi
Tokhrians

Turks:
Altai
Tatars
Kazakh
Bolgars
Uygur
Osmanli

Mongols:
Buryat
Tungus
Huns
Manchu
Khalka
Evenki


Tibetans:
Burmans
Tibetans
Qiang
Chinese
Naga
Karen

Hmong:
Hmong
Mien
Bunu
She
Biao
Bo-Pai

Mons:
Mon
Khmer
Bahnar
Vietnamese
Muong
Munda

Tai:
Siamese
Lao
Kam-Sui
Kadai
Shan
Zhuang

Malayos:
Dayak
Malagasy
Aetas
Chamaru
Sulawesi
Sundanese

Paiwans:
Atayal
Paiwan
Tsou
Kanakabu
Saaroa
Rukai

Kija:
Koreans
Dongyi
Silla
Paekche
Koryo
Japanese

more to come...


Chukchi:
Koryak
Chukot
Alyutor
Ainu
Gilyak
[Ket [=Yenisei-Ostyak-unrelated to Chukchi]]
[Yukaghir [also unrelated to Y-O or Chukchi]]

it needs finishing off a little - the last group is a compsite of unrelated NE Asian aboriginal nomadics.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30384&perpage=15&pagenumber=5

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

First theres the Categories in the form of an Ethnolinguistic tree:
72 "Peoples" (corresponding more or less to language families), each with 6 "Tribe" names they can split into, and each Tribe with 6 "Nation" names which the Tribers can split into.. these are just automatic names, to make the AI civs evolve over time... more or less like this:
Italic People->Latin Tribe->Italian Nation



Then there's the Quantifiability in the form of the L scale.

L0 - the same language
L1 - a regional accent of the langauge
L2 - a dialect of the language
L3 - a related language
L4 - a distantly related language
L5 - an unrelated language

linguistic variation maps for a particular language can be generated thus:

L5L5L5L3L3L2L2L2L2L4L4
L5L5L5L3L1L1L1L1L1L4L4
L5L5L5L1L1L0L0L1L1L1L2
L5L5L5L1L1L0L0L0L1L1L2
L5L5L5L5L5L1L0L0L0L1L1
L4L4L5L5L5L1L1L0L0L1L1
L4L4L4L4L5L5L1L1L1L1L1

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[IMGhttp://www.lifesci.utexas.edu/courses/mcmurry/spring98/13/map.gif[/IMG]

the purpose of languages is essentially mainly for the World-Dawn scenario (yet to be created).

As tribe-splitting and merger occurs, particularly splitting, language performs a function of describing an aspect of connection between tribes/civs.

it is one part of what differentiates one EG from another, and what connects one to another (or not)
Culture (in game terms) is another part.

The scale of language performs the function of defining how close or distant that connection is. An offshoot EG from another EG needs to have it's connection and difference from the original EG defined. Initially the difference will be small, over time that difference will increase. The Language scale is one simple way of measuring an aspect of that difference. After some resistence, it turns out that it does have a practical use in the riot model at least.

in actual playnig terms this performs a function of affecting behaviour of people, as illustrated in the riots model.

There are also some other minor "atmospheric" functions like defining how easy it is to negotiate with, trade with, spy on, and capture technology from other civs.

so, i think the purpose of language is probably:

a. to define an EG - the term ELG becomes appropriate - and its connection, including degree of connection to another EG.
This includes the evolution of new offshoot EGs, as a language evolves through each level every few hundred years.

b. to be a factor in how citizens behave, rioting, disrcimination, economic trade, cultural trade. Helping make a more sophisticated social model than exists in any other similar game.

c. to add some realism/atmos/tension - a "handicap" to what might otherwise be monotonously simplistic and predictable interactions between EGs and civs.



The names are purely to give the AI names to call offshoots from the original "people" or "language group people". Also including the feature of being able to name a new EG or state after a placename generated from a small, but regular vocab list for each of the language groups.

They are stratified in a pyramid of 1->6->36, for coding simplicity. And to depict the general trend of "ancient" -> "middle age" -> "modern" that ethnicites seem to go through, simplified and regularised for a game.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

messy, but at least most of it's on one thread.

[Lord God Jinnai]

Actually dress is the first thing that distinquishes a culture..

Chinese and Japanese languages have nothing in common. They are totally different, of different language families. One is tonal, the other is not, the grammars are also totally different. There is also little or no ethnic link between China and Japan, althoug Japan has been greatly influenced by Chinese cult

WRONG! They are totally different languages, true, but Japanese is based (majority) off of Chinese just as English is based (majority) on German. In fact their Kanji alphabet is based directly from Chinese symbols, with almost no variation (any would be so little that a chinese/japanese person would know what it meant). The enthnic link is far enough removed that there is little, although minimum, there (kinda how almost all of europe could be of 1 base group). They also have similar religious and cultural tradtions, espically considering the English we're comparing them to.[/quote]If you were playing as France or Spain and you wanted to eradicate them, desroying their language would be one important way of breaking them. likewise a foreign enemy might seek to provide aid to this ethinc guerilla group to weaken your nation...[/quote]Yes, another would be divide and conquer, another would be genocide, another would be destorying their history[quote]that the bulk of Scots English and French are very similar genetically.

the English are overwhelmingly ethnically Celtic with a Roman and German influnce, much like the French, but i think the French have more of a Germaninc and Roman influence. the Scots having some of the Welsh and Irish influence in addition. [yes i over-summarised france - excuse moi!]

The scotts espically and to a lesser extent the enlgish also have a lot of norse. I can say this as both my parents families are norse clans that colonized scottland near the end of the viking age.

1. i think each language should be researched like a technology, and translators should be a resource like engineers or soldiers - discuss!

Having language be good for barriers is fine, having my haveto spend time reasearching other languages is too much realism for me for Clash.

3. languages should provide bonuses or handicaps for negotiations, espionage, cultural conquest, pacifying an enemy.

No more than culture. Actually why should language even be serperate than EG? But yea i agree with the idea, just that langauge shouldn't have its own special space beyond other stuff in EG.

As to socieites, i guess then a bottom up you would consider an elitist society?

[yellowdaddy]

LGJ, please read everything carefully, including your own posts and the whole of that debate on the link before you start ranting.

NB:... = , =

[yellowdaddy]

links;

http://www.sumerian.org/sumlinks.htm

http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~histling/hlpublications.html

these guys used a program to find when languages in a lang family split.

[yellowdaddy]

langauge shouldn't have its own special space beyond other stuff in EG

In Wales, language and accent is strongly associated with National identity along with Land Connection.
As there are so many Welsh surnames in England which people don't think of as Welsh: "Jones, Evans, Davis, Thomas, Griffiths, Owen, Bowen, Parry, Barry, Powell, Pritchard, Price, Lewis even Lloyd and Llewellyn!" (the P and B ones are written Ap Owain, Ap Harri, Ap Hywel, Ap Rhisiart, and Ap Rhys but have been anglicised, "Ap/Ab" = "Mac/Mc" in Scottish and Irish), partly a result of the Tudor dynasty.

Language also behaves differnently to the "Culture" things you are talking about. Culture can cross groups without defining them.
Language is mostly specific to a group - you usually either speak it or you don't, even if you use bits of one on top of another, you are essentially still using another language.
Albanians can be at one pont largely Catholic, then Atheist, then Muslim, their Language ermains a constant, an evolving one, but still a constant. Culture fluctuates and is a separate "overlay" if you will, and can cross languages and races, language (as a mother tongue) is invariably linked to a given geographical area, and national or regional identity, and a selection of (historically traceable) racial traits - even in a place like Brazil.

Language and your "Cultural" things can't be treated as one entity, they don't behave like one entity. Language is not separate from EG, language in most cases is EG, along with a connection to a given land area, and an associated Ethnic identity. Culture is a separate overlay which can be part of defining an EG, but only sometimes, Culture can spread across land and languages to encapsulate different EGs - as in the case of the nations which make up the United Kingdom, it's a unified state of a group of EGs who define themselves by their surnames and accents or languages as well as a geographical area, and an ethnic identity (a name for themselves), the Culture and WOL are essentially the same, in parts of Scotland and Northern Ireland, Religion (or rather football team) add an extra layer to that.

[Gary Thomas]

As there are so many Welsh surnames in England which people don't think of as Welsh: "Jones, Evans, Davis, Thomas, Griffiths, Owen, Bowen, Parry, Barry, Powell, Pritchard, Price, Lewis even Lloyd and Llewellyn!"

But only five main ones, of which you left out Williams.

Cheers

Gareth Thomas look you.

[LDiCesare]

Jones, Evans, Davis, Thomas,

Yes this definitely sounds like Wales' XV. And Williams should be there too, on both wings.

[yellowdaddy]

...not to mention Preece, Pugh, Prosser, Morgan, Hopkins, Jenkins, Meredith, Merlin, Frodo, Bimbo and Gandalf.

[Stormbeard]

I'd actually read through this thread and thought little of it because of it's size, but of course that's what we're here to fix

I do think that the way *everything* is named ought to be determined by the EG. However, because of the organic way in which EG's divide and change in the Social model, I would consider it folly to stick to RL cultures. In that case should someone should start working on an EG evolution and nomeclature model?

Currently, my favorite Idea would be that the player can start from a scenario (in which the initial EG nomenclature variables have been inserted) and have the model evolve them from there. If he chose to start a new game though, he could choose to either make the new cultures start from random RL cultures, or start from the random generation. The Player's own culture creation would be under his control. This means that he would select either random or would determine all the variables in a GUI screen.

The initial variables would include a set of common names (can be random-generated easily) that wouldn't exclude other names, they'd simply be common; for all of these things there would be exceptions; a common city's name ending (like -grad or - city); how many syllables before the ending in the city's name (can be something like 2-4, probably using standard distribution probability); the name of the culture. Provinces would be named after cities or rivers- rivers being just random syllablic- they don't belong to any culture.

[Max Sinister]

Just in case you're interested:
I once had a similar idea and coded a little program that generates random names of people. This prog generates a number of syllables (each consisting of an optional starting consonant, a vowel and an optional end consonant) and appends an ending (-ish, -lish, -ese, -s).
Do you want to know more?

[yellowdaddy]

Do you want to know more?

certainly... but I want to see what Laurant has to say... he seems to have come round to accepting a place for language in the game.

should someone should start working on an EG evolution and nomeclature model?

I nominate Stormbeard (and Max Sinister), seeing as though you two seem to have thought about it.

The game is going to have to work on the basis that everything is a scenario, and there is no base game, just a set of models which can be used together in each scenario.

The Global Dawn Of Man scenario has to allow the player to select whether they want the base 72 groups simulating real life (and how many of them), and the completely random ones which SB is proposing. Or a mixture of them. As you've sort of mentioned.

In addition there are those who want to play fixed area scenarios often covering a specific period of history - such as the Punic Wars in the demo, so that has to be accommodated.

for the sake of convenience, I'd like the system to work on the same pattern as stated elswhere:

people -> tribe -> nation
->1------> 6------>36

i based this on averaging the way major language groups split, though very very roughly, as some language families produced more well known names than others (the groups of Indo-European are treated as separate language families).

Did you see page 9 of the Social model thread?

If you get on with some coding, you can then pass on any gfx needs to me and Gattsuden.

[Max Sinister]

Originally posted by yellowdaddy
certainly... but I want to see what Laurant has to say... he seems to have come round to accepting a place for language in the game.

OK, I'll contact him after the holidays.

Originally posted by yellowdaddy
Did you see page 9 of the Social model thread?

Yes.

[Gary Thomas]

I cannot see any place at all for language in the game. Nor can I see any possibility of any coder wasting their (precious) time on it.

Also, I cannot see it having any actual effect on the game, apart from adding one more irrelevant thing for the player to worry about. The game is far too complicated already - we should be seeking ways to simplify it.

Cheers

[Lord God Jinnai]

My thoughts exactly. If you really think some aspect is needed, it should be complied with what defines an EG or cultures, even though i still don't think its important for either.

[yellowdaddy]

GT:

I cannot see any place at all for language in the game. Nor can I see any possibility of any coder wasting their (precious) time on it.

LGJ:

My thoughts exactly.

I couldn't disagree more if i tried (not that I'm trying).

I've already made the case quite thoroughly, and neither of you have come up with any good reason why not IMO - least of all LGJ who's posts on the subject tend not to make a lot of sense to me, and tend not to be coherantly argued or supported with any references.

Further, Laurant's riots model has already found a useful role for language. I think more uses could follow.

Terms like "irrelevant", "precious", "wasting", "important" and "complicated" are rather subjective.
You could apply them as and where you like to any aspect of the game if you really wanted to.

As language is one of the main features that does define EGs in the real world, so it should be in the game, along with Land Connection and Ethnic ID (equiv. to nationalism) and Culture - which should be defined by categories like those on the list of 12 i posted on the Social model page, and be a special category of each EGs attributes and be like an "overlay" ("plague" being the way it behaves, rather than the way it's defined).

This is a simplification, and a clarification.
The current state of affairs is a bit messy (things in the wrong place, and some may not be necessary) and vague, and thus unnecessarily complicated. (I will go through the current ones if necessary and state which ones are the problem.)
This is not about adding more stuff for the sake of it, it's about tidying what's there so it works properly and makes sense.

If there are now some coders willing to code it then great. This game will need to be a "confederacy of ideas" if it's to get completed. That means making something that accommodates the preferences of all without imposing them on everyone.
No-one's asking either of you two to do any work on this, nor imposing it as a game feature that can't be deselected in a preferences menu, so you've no reason to get your backs up about it. On the preferences menu we can have an option saying "languages on or off", and Robert's your mother's brother...