Gold, Guns and Glory: Poll I

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by TechWins
So the score is only going to be determined from FATES of empires and not multiple variables? Also, the DIQ is going to be an average and not a number that is constantly changing with no regard to it's prior value, right? If any of that makes sense.

'Fate' meaning = The Sum of all Relevant Variables. Not to be confused with 'Freight', which may also be a feature.

Your DIQ for each Empire will be a reasonable expression of how 'well' that Empire does over the course of its history. Now the real question is: What are the criterions for 'success' of an Empire?

Suffice it to say Longevity, Size, Happiness and 'Achievements' will all play a part.

[Boris Godunov]

[SIZE=1] Originally posted by Comrade If the God of Christianity hadn´t 'jumped ship' from the Roman to the Germanic Civilization, he wouldn´t have survived, if you think about it, so this is ultimate realism here.

Not to nitpick, but you seem to be forgetting that Christianity also survived in the Byzantine Empire as Eastern Orthodoxy...

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Not to nitpick, but you seem to be forgetting that Christianity also survived in the Byzantine Empire as Eastern Orthodoxy...

Yep, you right on this. Byzantines are one of my all-time favourite Civs, actually.

This is beside the point though, since the Gods of all religions were actually visiting aliens who were totally misunderstood by our forefathers. When Christ said: 'My Empire is not on this world!', he meant it literally, of course.

[Comrade Tribune]

(When being crucified, He got somewhat annoyed, picked up Moses and Eliah, and they left with their spaceship. His final remark: 'Not suitable for Civilization.' was found inexpedient and deleted from the Bible by the Nicaean Council.)

[Straybow]

The problem with UUs is that they are arbitrary. "First Republic with Militaristic value system gets Legion" is really no different from "Rome gets Legion." The thing that made the Legion what it was had little to do with militaristic vs peaceful or republic vs monarchy. Rome only became militaristic (as defined in Civlike games) after the Punic Wars, 3rd cen BCE.

For example, oligarchy meant that only landowners voted, but also that only landowners qualified for service in the "corpus" (now corps). Male children of landowners who did not inherit land could serve 25 years and receive a land grant, extending the status of their birth to the next generation.

This core of the legion was a highly trained elite of highly motivated soldiers. The second key to the Legion's effectiveness was discipline. They had perhaps the first true non-commisioned officer, the centurion. Another key to the Legion was true combined arms action. The Legion had heavy cavalry, heavy and medium infantry, and engineers in the corps (can't recall if archers were included in the corps). Auxiliaries were light cav/inf skirmishers (and maybe archers).

The discipline and combined arms were integral. All except the most basic weapons training was on maneuvers and actions as a whole Legion or in large groups called "Maniples." Note that this level of training and interaction was absent in post-Roman armies including Byzantines, who had lapsed and fallen into the Germanic model of mounted knights and unmounted peasants, never the twain to meet.

In essence, Roman social structure enable choices in how to run a military as a whole system, and enabled choices in how to run a government as a whole system. But the choices could easily have gone another way, with a Legion and a monarchy or a republic without a Legion. The limits of the social structure and government eventually led to a monarchy that eclipsed the republican ideal, but the Legion endured. The Rus (pre-Mongol slavs under Nordic oligarchy) were quasi-republican. Novgorod lasted until the fifteenth century, but no Legionaire system was invented.

The Germanic chivalry system had some elements, and could have developed on similar lines given some minor changes in its early history. Instead feudalism arose, and modern military structure had to undo some of the feudal elements to recapture the "citizen soldier" aspect of the Legion. Some point to extending of land grants to noncitizen mercenaries as the beginning of the end of both Rome and the Legion… both were undermined in one stroke.

None of these things can be modeled in a game without much difficulty. What is culture? How do you include it? Attaching it to the name of the civ is no doubt easiest and the best way to make it exclusive, if exclusiveness is what you want. If flexibility is what you want, find a way to make choices that are somehow balanced with limitations. Obviously it must be possible to overcome the limitation to expand beyond a regional power.

This concludes the lesson for today.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Straybow
The problem with UUs is that they are arbitrary. "First Republic with Militaristic value system gets Legion" is really no different from "Rome gets Legion."

Ahhh, you don´t get me here. 'Rome' is just a name, at least under the Unpredictability option.

Legion has a lot to do with Republic (Citizen Army is only possible with self-government). Ancient Germans had a 'Republic' of sorts, at least much closer to that than an Oriental Despotism. They were very Democratic in many respects, however, they didn´t have the amount of 'Organization' to enable Legions.

And 'Militaristic' is not set; an Empire becomes Militaristic over time, mostly by -guess what?- going to war.