Announcement

**Darkknight** · January 19, 2002, 21:28

I have to agree. This time last year a group of about 6 of us started work on a project named "Humankind" We had plenty of ideas and I as the gfx artist had made a few interface designs etc. But when after 4-5 months we still hadn't got a line of working code people started drifting off. I tried to get more people interested but Steve didn't have enough time to run it along with his day job so it collapsed. The next month I went to the various alt-civ sites and started helping Manifest destiny with gfx. Ron's and Jim Hahn and about 10 others had been working on it for the last 3-4 years and it was just getting to the stage where they needed new programmers and gfx artists.

**Mark_Everson** · January 19, 2002, 23:46

Hey Darkknight:

Thanks for the response. You seem to be doing some cool stuff with the MD art. I check the thread every once in a while, but haven't yet been moved to respond

If Clash were the only alt-civ project I could understand all the people wanting to start from scratch. Clash is extremely ambitious, and unless a prospect is the sort that gets into that complexity, I can see it being a turnoff. But the alt-civ genre has teams all the way from basically reproducing Civ with just a few tweaks to some projects that are Utterly different. Since I see a wide variety of projects that covers at least a range of the possibilities, its hard for me to get why people always want to start from scratch. Especially given the well-known hurdles for a new project. Oh well... I guess some people want the project they work on to represent 100% of how they think things should be in their ideal game.

Cya,

Mark

**dexter4dxm** · January 20, 2002, 14:52

although i have chosen the solo route, i can't help but agree with you guys. there is a countless number of projects that die out, many of them with little or no code done. i think the hardest part of making a game is sticking with it throughout the whole development process (or is the AI the hardest part? hehe). after about a month it loses its initial excitement, and it just gets worse as time goes on. fortunately, it gets better. you get to a point in the game where everything starts coming together, and the progress builds excitement. still, after all i've done, i'd be glad to start a new project in a second. i might work a little on the side, but as far as my alt-civ game goes, i'm here to stay. i decided early on that i will work on this project from start to finish, and perhaps beyond that. i guess what i'm saying is not so much that people need to join already existing projects, but that people need to stick with the project they choose for a much longer amount of time.

**Mark_Everson** · January 21, 2002, 08:43

Hey dexter:

I agree people should stick with it... But in reality sh*t happens, and some people's interest and time are going to last only for a while. So I think that its another reason to at least start with an existing project so that four months or year of work actually Does something. YMMV

-Mark

**RonHiler** · January 22, 2002, 00:31

While I basically agree with your position, Mark, I think it makes no difference what we say

When a person decides to create a game, whether it be an alt-civ or an FPS or whatever, I think they usually come up with the initial idea away from the computer. They then get very excited about the idea. No amount of us saying "don't dilute the talent pool" is going to sway them. In their eyes, they've come up with the "next big-huge game", and they're going to make it and become rich, famous, etc. We were both there once ourselves, a long time ago

I think it is probably very rare for a person to come here and read about an existing project and get excited enough about it to want to join the team cold. If anything, it might inspire them to create their own game, and we're right back where we started.

And, in reality, I don't think it's really such a bad thing anyway.

The best new people for existing projects are those who have started their own project and had it fail. You can tell people until you're blue in the face how much work and time one of these projects is, but they just aren't going to really understand it until and unless they experience it for themselves. Someone who already has that experience and still wants to join a team is much less likely to leave after a few weeks, I think. Not to mention they have at least some practical experience in design, programming, whatever, which is good.

So let them start their projects. I root for each one to make it

We know a good number of them are going to fail from past experience, but even so, those people who don't leave the game design world forever become better prospects for us to pick up and improve our own projects, heh. And those that *do* make it improve the genre in general, which is a good thing.

Darknight has been a *huge* help for us, where we've been severly lacking in artists, he came in and gave a lot of life to MD. And, as he says, he came from another project that didn't make it. In contrast, I've found that people who come in with no previous experience tend to wander off after a few weeks (though there have been exceptions!).

Ron

**Mark_Everson** · January 22, 2002, 22:37

Hi Ron, thanks for the detailed response!

Originally posted by RonHiler
While I basically agree with your position, Mark, I think it makes no difference what we say

Actually I think it can have some effect on the margins, but basically agree.

When a person decides to create a game, whether it be an alt-civ or an FPS or whatever, I think they usually come up with the initial idea away from the computer. They then get very excited about the idea. No amount of us saying "don't dilute the talent pool" is going to sway them. In their eyes, they've come up with the "next big-huge game", and they're going to make it and become rich, famous, etc. We were both there once ourselves, a long time ago

Actually I would have gladly joined another project those ages ago when I started Clash... I knew it'd be a huge amount of work starting from scratch, though I didn't know How Much!

But I didn't find a single other group, at least casting about. So I bit the bullet, and started. But it was quite a while of coding on my own before I went public... by then it was tooo Late to turn back.

Darknight has been a *huge* help for us, where we've been severly lacking in artists, he came in and gave a lot of life to MD. And, as he says, he came from another project that didn't make it. In contrast, I've found that people who come in with no previous experience tend to wander off after a few weeks (though there have been exceptions!).

Glad its working out! For most of our regulars, including me, I think this is the first big project.

Continued good fortune to MD!

**Mark_Everson** · December 29, 2002, 11:32

Guns, Germs and Steel was one of the nascent projects I tried to talk into teaming up with already-existing groups instead. With the more-or-less official demise of GGS, I thought I would run this back up to the top, since its about time for another such project to consider forming. They seem to come by every six months to a year due to a bunch of people getting together on one forum or another.

Comments on the overall thesis are solicited

.

**felipevereador** · January 31, 2003, 16:15

> If Clash were the only alt-civ project I could understand all the people wanting to start from scratch.

Well, I'm building a alt civ, and I can tell you, there are a number of barriers to join programmers in such a project, to start with there is the language barrier, I program in Delphi, an a C++ or VB programmer would be unaceptable (not that I dislike there languages, but it would slow the project down).

Also if someone whats to build a home-made game like this is because he tryed all combinations of customizations and still can't get what he wants, so a group project would take a huge time just so that everyone agrees with the game rules...

Also if you know you partners only by net one of the main phases of a project will be hard to do: the design, I like to draw my designs on paper and them build, so it's another barrier.

Felipe

**Dale** · January 31, 2003, 16:55

Another arguement is if you want to code a game so you can use it in your folio to break into the game industry. That's what I'm doing at the moment. Me and a friend (he's doing the graphics for me) are writing a game so I can use it for my centrepiece folio program. Can't get a job with a game you only did 10% of.

**Rasbelin** · January 31, 2003, 17:35

Re: Starting a New Project vs. Joining an Existing One

I'm not sure if my thoughts are that interesting, compared to veterans like Ron, Mark and Vel, but I'll add my thoughts too.

Originally posted by Mark_Everson

Please, please consider what is available in existing projects before you start a new project. There are few enough people really willing to work to make alterative civ games happen, so IMO its important they band together to work on relatively few projects to attain critical mass. That way some can actually become real Games! The alternative is lots of projects that use up time and effort, and never even get to the stage of putting out a demo.

I agree about this with you. I have covered this issue somewhat in my latest unpublished The Column writing, but as it's more about alternative development in general, I'll cover it now then.

Indeed it's of course nice to be your own boss and have your nice little project, but in the long run it's demanding and easily fails because of lack of interest, time and associates you could work with. Okay, well, you can gather your own team and have fun and plan, but at one stage you need to kick off with the coding and other work. If the person would have looked for suitable project in the first place and joined them, time and effort would have been saved and maybe a yet another alternative project saved from vanishing. This is indeed crucial as we won't see that much success, unless we get working power houses that have ambitious teams that have enough members so that they can get the work done and more ideas can be gathered as all are assumable interested in the same issues.

I may sound like a propaganda speaker or a reverend ("Alternative Development Evangelism" by Rasbelin

), but I see it as important that all the good pecies would be mended into larger and efficient groups as good, but still weak projects that have great visions and ideas vapourise and the work is maybe completely lost then. Already looking on e.g. SourceForge under TBS game projects gives you a worrying feeling as you notice how many projects are inactive or dead, despite they are listed there. I have encountered trouble many times while trying to lead the Stella Polaris project (which is actually Blake's task, but he's absent), but we have always somehow managed to stay alive and continue forward. It's turbulent, but I hope it will settle as we progress. However it has given me and the rest of the team important lessons and also strengthened the team and the project. What worries me is that alternative projects are eating ground from each other very effectively, despite the commercial preasure is very low, so this is IMO alarming soon. We seem to fight for the same potential developers, despite the number of people interested in working voluntarily (or somewhat paid like Courts of Candle'Bre, maybe even Clash) with alternative development. E.g. Stella Polaris has to live along with the commercial game Galactic Civilizations and the open source SMAC clone by the Freeciv project, which isn't a problem in general, but much of the attention seems to be drawn to the others. This is a common problem for small projects, so it's one issue that needs attention.

**Mark_Everson** · February 1, 2003, 13:50

Originally posted by felipevereador
Also if someone whats to build a home-made game like this is because he tryed all combinations of customizations and still can't get what he wants, so a group project would take a huge time just so that everyone agrees with the game rules...

Hi Felipe:
I understand about needing to stick to a coding language with which one is familiar. I generally don't fault people for being dedicated to one language or another. Although I do take exception when people say that games Can't be done in Java. And I understand that the project needs to be sufficiently similar to what you want to make it worth while putting in all the effort. The big problem that I have is that people seem to want something that is Exactly what they want in a game project. I think getting 80% of what you want with some likelihood is much better than a frankly very small chance of getting 100% of what you want. YMMV

IMO you should find some other Delphi coders to get together with so that you will have a decent chance of actually achieving something. Doing anything other than an almost exact clone with a single person is Very Very difficult.

Hi Dale, how is it going? I would like to think that the game companies would take 20% of a great project and weigh it more heavily than 100% of a so-so demo project. Of course you'd have to tell them exactly what 20% you did. I admit this may not correspond to reality with certain companies, but I'd like to think they take into account that it's a team that puts together a game.

I pretty much agree with what you are saying Rasbelin. Of course there is also the person who just likes being in on the design discussions, and just wants to talk about it forever. For them, forming a new project is about the only alternative, but they'll never get anywhere...

**felipevereador** · February 1, 2003, 16:45

Although I do take exception when people say that games Can't be done in Java

Hi Mark,

If they say that they don't know java, but I wouldn't do it since it lacks DirectX

The big problem that I have is that people seem to want something that is Exactly what they want in a game project. I think getting 80% of what you want with some likelihood is much better than a frankly very small chance of getting 100% of what you want.

What I ment is that distance can make a project discussion extend for months

IMO you should find some other Delphi coders to get together with so that you will have a decent chance of actually achieving something. Doing anything other than an almost exact clone with a single person is Very Very difficult.

I'm looking for it... Anyone interested e-mail me: felipevereador@hotmail.com.
So far I kept this project alive in a interesting way, I just made several versions of a non-complete game with small modifications from each other, to slowly make everything work. I'm in 6.0, I have 3D tiles, units move, cities work but I'm in a total lack of graphics, like sprites and stuff, any ideas?

**LDiCesare** · February 2, 2003, 16:59

Can't get a job with a game you only did 10% of.

I disagree.
First, Gary Thomas, who developped a lot of things in Clash, once told us he got a contract because of Clash. He worked as an independant contractor, the people wanted to see what UI work he had done, and he told them download that and look. Admittedly, he did a lot more than 10%, but he didn't make everything.

Second, I remember when I went to join a game development ompany some time ago. They were interested in two things: How I wrote code (giving samples or by doing exercices). They didn't ask to look at programs I had done. They wanted to see it. So how you do things is the most important. They want to know how you code, so they know if you can be trusted. And you'll learn to code better if you code with others. Do not underestimate that. I think I code well, but I am always trying to learn from others. They teach you more than a book.

Last, in a company, including the game company I applied to, tasks are defined, and every one is assigned a peculiar task. You can sometimes get out of that task and do more, but you will have to interface with other people. Being able to show you made a game as part of a team, particularly if it was split on the internet which is not as easy a medium to communicate as working in the same office, then you show that you are able to work as a member of a team. And I guarantee that this is of utmost importance for a would-be hirer.

**Dale** · February 3, 2003, 02:49

While I do agree that working in a team is the better option (hey I'm in a team of 3 in my job at desktop support), unfortunately Melbourne House, Infogrammes Oz and SSI think differently. I've spoken to the agency who handles their recruitment and I got told I need a folio where I had done the majority if not all the work. They did however mention that if I was going for a coding position I wasn't expected to have a brilliant design or artistry, but the code had to be mine. *shrug*

Anyways, with my game Empire, I've got a graphic artist doing the graphics for me, and I had help with the design from a mate of mine in EA.

So I suppose I'm part of a team. hahaha. But the actuall C++ code is all mine, and the implementation techniques are mine as well.

Also, the game's so far along now that I might as well finish it by myself. I've only got the combat model to do (just got some pretty basic combat at the moment), some user reports and diplomacy.