New PBEM Classic SMAC

[mmontgomery]

Actually, if that progression will work, I am OK with it. It was just in a previous game which started like this, I was sidetracked like crazy.

Let's just continue the game then. I will send on the turn.

Thanks!

[vyeh]

Game has restarted.

I redid the game. The only difference is that I switched the order for Morgan and University (mmontgomery and FriendlyFire have the same local time). Everything else is the same, including starting locations.

I verified that University (mmontgomery) could choose Planetary Networks as its free pick in 2101.

Looking at the tech choices, it still seems that Mart's report that there are missing techs in the first choice is correct. All of the human players were affected. (For competitive reasons, I am not going to list which techs are missing from which players.)

Since mmontgomery specifically pointed out planetary networks and since he can now choose it, I am not going to attempt to fix a known problem that Mart says has no solution.

If someone else can't pick the first tech they want, I propose that we use Mart's solution, where I pre-select the tech when I set the passwords.

I saw mmontgomery's post above after I had already posted the revised game in the TTT. If you choose not to use the revised game, let me know and I will amend the post to avoid confusion.

[vyeh]

Just to confirm on the original scenario playing University (slot #3). As mmontgomery has already stated, PN was missing from the free pick and the first pick. I picked IB as the free pick and IE as the first pick.

For the second pick, I was able to pick PN. And the third pick was IA. So only sidetrack was not being able to go down the PN branch of the IA b-line at the free or first pick.

This comment is directed at Darsnan, Mart and other (past and future) CMN:

There are a lot of quirks with setting up a game. I had to start over when I erroneously saved my scenario through the game menu (instead of the scenario menu). I ran into a problem stated with the fact that when I used the set mission year command, it set the mission year to 2101 even though the field said 2100. I have a much greater appreciation for Darsnan for setting up ACDG4 and Mart for setting up ACDG5 (even Maniac ran into an issue in randomly generating ACDG6).

[mmontgomery]

vyeh, thanks for clarification on the tech. I have zero problem going down the other path first, and saving Planetary Networks for later.

I just wanted to avoid a situation like in Kill Monty - 3 vs. 2. In this game, I was sidetrack FOUR TIMES on my way to IA. I posted my frustration, and found that the other players were similarly sidetracked. For whatever reason, IE was not offered as a possible tech for ANYONE until the player had researched a pile of other techs. Needless to say, KM 3vs2 is going to be one strange game.

[vyeh]

According to the TTT, there has been one complete turn. Use this thread, not the TTT, to report any problems.

I'm glad I could help out.

[zsozso]

As florin79c pointed out in the TTT, the explicit rules did not state that players are not allowed to initiate diplomacy until they met in-game. Since he raised the point it sounds like this is a usual rule which I have now violated by offering Treaty to all human players. I admit I did not play PBEM for years, but in the early years of SMAC I used to and we never had such rule in those games, in fact it was common to start diplomacy right from the beginning, treaty/pact and tech trading can accelerate the slow start of PBEM games, so it seems logical to me. Although I understand the other point of view too, i.e. single-player games only allow diplomacy after contact so the same could be followed for MP games too. So, the point is, I do not want to change the rules even if not explicitly stated, so if you think it is better to restrict diplomacy for after-contact, then it is not too late to ignore my treaty offer and I will not initiate any more diplomacy until contact in-game.

So, players and CMN, what is your take on this issue ?
Please, let me know before the next turn comes around!

[vyeh]

Please review rules carefully. I copied them and have no particular attachment.

I copied them from Old Pbem 2 and added specific rules that mmontgomery proposed.

My philosophy in setting up this game was to copy Mart as much as possible, so you could turn to him for rules interpretation.

Please note that while you can email fellow players and agree not to fight, not to build certain secret projects, I'm not sure how you would actually create a treaty for game purposes or trade techs until you actually met and the other faction is in your comm link menu.

Please note that both florin79c and mmontgomery began Old Pbem 2, which began February 2008, so I think they would have a hard time saying that they have never played a game without that rule.

And the rules were posted for discussion.

So my two points are:

(1) how would you trade techs before you actually met in-game?

(2) the rule against contact prior to an in-game meeting is not customary (some games have it; others do not).

Hope that helps further the discussion.

[florin79c]

@Zsozso : If the rule is not there, you broke nothig .

The idea is that Old 2 PBEM it's a team game in wich the team parteners can start trade at any time. This is not the only team game and i suspected you coppyed them from one of thows TTT. This is why i asked the rules to be placed by monty so i wont foget any, thow i dont see a problem for this rule, i dont mind starting with a treaty and change techs.

[zsozso]

As for (1), the human players are simply there on the diplomacy menu from the first turn. I have always seen that in every PBEM or hotseat game. It seems to be a feature of the multi-player games...

BTW, it is not limited to SMAC/X either, recently I play some CivRev games online (parallel IP games) and the same is true there as well: you can do diplomacy with other human players from the first turn, but with the AI civs only after meeting them. So, I do not think it is a "bug", more like a deliberate feature.

[vyeh]

Thanks. I don't play multiplayer.

I didn't realize Old Pbem 2 was a team game. Mart didn't provide a link to a set-up thread. (By searching I see that the team concept was discussed in Old Pbem.)

I don't think it is a bug. MP is different from SP. By allowing contact from the beginning, there is more diplomacy.

No rule against contact is sort of similar to giving the human players each other's comm frequencies.

Since florin79c doesn't have a problem with the rule either way and neither mmontgomery nor FriendlyFire has objected, I suggest that the rule against contact seems to occur in some games and not in other games, so it really can't be considered a standard rule the same way the rule against multiple airdrops.

[mmontgomery]

Sorry to be late chiming in, but in EVERY multiplayer non-team game I have played in the last 2 years, the rule has been that no contact is allowed until in-game contact is achieved.

For team games, members of a team can make contact right away, but they cannot contact outside of their team until in-game contact has been made.


To bring up another issue, Friendly Fire reported:

"Talk about an idiot Monty! I knew we started in the corners but I didn't think right in THE corner! LOL Very dumb start by your's truly!"

When I asked if he was literally in the corner rather than the intended jungle starting square, he said:

"I am in the corner so that I have lost 6 productive tiles - I guess my own fault for not moving but I only had the CP's radius of vision to go by."

vyeh, can you check on this? If he did not start on the jungle square, then we absolutely need to restart the game with him starting on the correct square. There is no way that this could be a balanced start if he is literally in the corner.

[florin79c]

Dito!

[St Jon]

Turn 2103 to Uni.

I am not in the corner tile - I would have noticed that even from the CP's vision but just 1 tile away so that I have lost productive radius from my 1st base which is a pain. I can live with it but it's still annoying - I just wish I had known so that I could have moved rather than build!

FF

[vyeh]

Since everybody got a symmetrical start, it can't hurt to show you this picture of FriendlyFire (Morgan) starting tile. (Everybody's starting tile looks like this.)

Please note that the colony pod is on the rolling moist jungle. Everybody started with only 9 tiles visible.

I've been careful not to disclose which of the four corners he is in.

[St Jon]

If we all have a reduced production radius for starting base then fine. I still don't really understand why though?