LapTop Collection 2: the Crossroads of Life

[Net Warrior]

President,
Please expect Free Drones dipomatic correspondence.
Foreman Domai

[jtsisyoda]

I have sent President-Elect Googlie a detailed briefing. Congratulations on an honorable, smear-free election campaign against me. The people have spoken, and I'm relegated to the lecture circuit.

[Googlie]

2166 to the Consciousness

[Rubin]

2167 to Domai.

Oh, and Commisioner Googlie has convened the Planetary Council (at least that was the message I got)! Agenda: Elect Planetary Governor.

Googlie voted for Googlie!
Ruby voted for Zakharov (and so did Miriam, Santiago and, of course, Zakharov)!

Googlie: 112
Zakharov: 209

[Googlie]

OOPs - sorry - I forgot to post that I'd called elections, who the candidates were, and who was voting for whom

(I originally voted for Zak, cos the candidates were Zak and Yoda, then I realized that I was Yoda (before I changed)

A little-known feature of saving in-game (with the left hand "save" menu instead of the right hand "turn complete" menu) is that when the turn is again opened (during an election call) you get to vote again (doesn't double the votes, though!!)

So I changed (I voted for the $87 billion before I voted against it)

GGLIE

[Net Warrior]

Ok guys, here's something I've never seen or heard discussed before. Very wierd stuff:

The candidates were Googlie with 112 and Zakharov with 209 when I started the turn. I voted and then during my production phase, as expected, I completed The Empathic Guild SP. As usual I saved my turn to mull over my move. When I was ready, I loaded it up and I got to vote again, as expected.

Now here's the wierd part. Now the candidates were Googlie with 112 and Domai with 0. All the votes were cast as before for Zak but Zak was no longer a candidate.

Stupidly enough, I didn't notice this till after I had voted the 2nd time and I didn't even vote for myself. But no matter, Googlie has the votes to win for himself vs Domai, no matter what the remainin voters do.

So guys, please read this and comment. I'll hold the move for a while just to see what you all think.

[Rubin]

Well, the only options I can see are:

1) Replay the turn without any mid-turn saving.

This applies IF the fact that Domai has replaced Zakharov as a canditate is a bug in the multiplayer part of the game. (Note that the problem is not that the Free Drones voted a second time with the +50% extra votes from the Empath Guild to secure a specific candidate for Governorship.)

2) We simply continue.

Zakharov had 209 votes and Googlie had 112 when I had cast my votes. The remaining 95 votes (57 from Domai and 38 from Cha Cha) would not be able to change the outcome: Zakharov as Planetary Governor (Googlie could get only 207 votes). However, the votes may change during gameplay and it would be difficult to preserve the original number of votes (including the mid-turn saving issue). If Cha Cha--in this specific election--were to vote for Googlie then Googlie would probably have won the election even if Zakharov was still a candidate.

My conclusion is: If Cha Cha intends to cast his votes for Zakharov then I suggest a replay. If Cha Cha intends to cast his votes for Googlie then the 'new candidate' issue has no impact on the game and we can simply continue.

So, Chip, what does the Cult say?

[Googlie]

Well, I've seen this before. The act of getting the EG rendered the Zak candidacy invalid (as Domai and the PK's are now the 2 candidates. - but I have also seen it emerge as a 3 candidate race after someone got the EG in mid election)

Therefore, those voting for Zak effectively destroyed their ballots (hanging, pregnant or dimpled chads, etc) so Commissioner Googlie won on a technicality, albeit a minority vote.

No?

GGLIE

[Darsnan]

I do hope that the "Supreme Court" doesn't need to get involved in deciding this election...


D

[Chip_Buckner]

For several years, whenever the state of Missouri had an election problem, it referred the matter to yours truly, who was state Assistant Attorney General. (It was after my era, but those of you familiar with US politics may remember that Missouri was the state that elected a dead man to the US Senate.) Based on my years of professional experience, I can tell you that there is a technical legal term that touches perfectly on this situation. And that term is ...

Yuk!

I think there are two issues. First, who are the candidates? Second, how many votes does Domai get to cast?

It seems to me that when an election does not admit for the possibility of a write-in vote, the candidates must necessarily be fixed before election day. It does not matter, for example, that Colin Powell or Hilary Clinton might have been able to collect more votes than did George Bush. Powell and Clinton were not on the ballot and, therefore, could not have been elected. I think, therefore, that the candidates must be Googlie and Zakharov.

I could have reached the same result by observing that one normally plays a turn to conclusion before saving the state of the game and passing the turn to the next player. If an individual can change the result from one known state (Googlie and Zakharov are the candidates) to another knowable state (Googlie and Domai are the candidates) merely by saving and reloading the turn, the condition is a bug in the multiplayer game. I would prohibit a condition that results from that bug.

The number of votes Domai is to cast creates a problem for me. The answer most advantageous to me would be that Domai gets his Empath Guild-enhanced vote total and my 38 little votes will decide the election. I do not, however, think that this is the right answer.

Using my Save/Load rule, I do not think it is appropriate to use any advantage that arises from Saving and Loading a turn. Applying this rule limits Domai to the lesser number of votes.

To pick up on Rubin's thought, I acknowledge that things may happen during a turn that affects the number of votes that are cast. In the normal case, though, you can only affect someone else's vote total. Nothing you do during your turn affects the number of votes you cast, because the votes are cast at the beginning of a turn.

My view is that Zak and Googlie are the candidates, Domai does not get the benefit of the Empath Guild this election cycle (if Googlie wanted those votes, he should have held off a year before calling the election) and I don't get to try to solicit a bribe from Googlie.

I acknowledge, however, that honorable people may have a different opinion. Because I enjoy the rapidity with which this group moves the game along, I want to keep playing with you guys. The most important thing to me, therefore, is that we reach a result that we all think is appropriate. If we do not reach a consensus on how this is to be handled, I would like to submit the matter to our CMN for a ruling.

[Googlie]

One alternative is that I replay from that 2166 turn, but don't call the election this year (I didn't know when the EG was being delivered, altho I should have intuited it from the pre-turn briefungs I got - my intention in calling elections - when I saw that Zak would be a candidate - was to deny the EG to a human-controlled faction. Indeed, when I first called it, I voted for Zak, thehn after saving and reopening I saw that there was no way in any event that I could win, so voted for myself)

Only problem with a replay is that there'll be more than 1 reload message, as I opened the turn several times (after it finished and sent on) to prep screenies to send to Yoda

But that's certainly an option. I'd undertake to do everything the same - as far as I was able given the complexity of the turn - except for calling the election. (As I'm sure all the subsequent players would, as well)

G.

[Net Warrior]

Well I don't care much for a total replay from Googlie on. Also, the number of votes I got before and after the SP was the same, 57. Additionally, since we're here on Chiron and not back in the good old US of A, we have to abide by the prevailing rules, namely that a mid-turn change of heart is permitted.

The real problem is that the defacto winner, Zak, was knocked off the ballet. I think this is actually quite funny from a role playing point of view; it adds a twist to the game as it were. None the less, if we decide to fix it, I can simply reload the original move and play thru once. There was one event in my turn that was subject to randomness so that presents a bit of a problem too.

Anyway, I don't feet strongly about it one way or the other, and I'll go along with the majority.

edit: No, actually, wait, there were more like 3 random events in my turn. I almost forgot. ....errr, perhaps we should let Darsnan decide.

[Chip_Buckner]

Do we permit mid-turn changes of heart? Or did I misunderstand your meaning? There are times I pop a pod and decide, immediately thereafter, that it was a mistake. May I go back and undo that decision? Could I do that if, as sometimes appears to be the case with an election, I could do it without a causing something that others could see?

If I admitted how many mistakes I've made in this game, you'd probably stop playing with me. I have, for example, twice rush-built something with more than the minimum amount of minerals. On one of those occasions it happened because my wife interrupted me mid-keystroke. But I don't get to go back and undo my errant keystroke.

I don't have a problem with NetWarrior's replay. First, if he says it was an innocent save and reload, it was an innocent save and reload. Second, it's a game. Who cares? Third, if the only change we're concerned about is a set of random events, he can't control them. Random events are, after all, random. They may happen the same way. They may happen differently. He doesn't know. Presumably the same set of factors that caused him to make a particular decision the first time will be present and urge the same decision this time around.

Googlie's replay, though, is a different deal. The completion of the Empath Guild is not a random event. It will happen. He has been quite candid in telling us that, knowing that the EG will be completed and that NetWarrior will vote for him would cause him to delay calling the election a turn. I know that--weak a player as I am--even I would figure that one out. I will be disappointed if we undo and postpone the election.

Perhaps we ought to call in the Supreme Court.

[Googlie]

Note that there is a difference between saving mid-game (using the left hand save option - but you have to rename the game as xxxxmid,sav or something - hereinafter referred to as a midturn save) and turn-completing, or exiting using the default save name.

With a midturn save, all moves completed to that turn are saved - in effect, you are simply "pausing" the game. There is no relaod message given, as, in fact, there is no reload, just a continuation.

The only difference is what happened here. "Cos the vote is "active" there is a chance to recast the vote (and if you do, then execute a midturn save again, then the vote comes up again, ad inf.)

If NW had executed a midturn save after getting the EG, then on reopening the turn I believe he would have seen his vote total double

So a midturn save is not a reload.

And a similar (to what happened) effect is generated when, for example, elections are called, and the 2 candidates identified. If a subsequent player has, say, the PTS and founds, say, 3 bases that turn, (and the 9 extra population makes him # 1 or #2 in the pop charts) then the subsequent player will see changed candidacies (but the expanding player won't get 9 more votes, as he voted at the beginning of his turn. If he executed a midturn save, then he'd see himself as a candidate as well as the extra 9 votes)

[Net Warrior]

I did perform a midturn save so there will be no "re-load" message. When I restarted the turn I did not get my vote total doubled. The question is, does this plus the fact that one candidate was eliminated and all votes cast for him lost, constitute a bug?

Oh, for future reference, I guess I also need a ruling on whether I'm allowed to change my vote midturn. Here it's mute since the outcome of the election will not be changed.