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**TimeTraveler** · March 29, 2008, 20:07

I was going to state the dangers of giving two options each +1Econ... until I read the second paragraph of your post. ^^; We could have it where +2Econ is added to each of the options of one of the categories. I suggest the Economics choices.

By that nature, what kinds of Econ values will Morgan, Yang, and Cha Dawn have? Will the latter two be kept from running both Free Market and Wealth?

I can't help but doubt whether you meant to have the Network Backbone remove the -2 Econ from the Enclosed choice. Same goes for the negative effects of Wealth and Hybrid for the Cloning Vats. I personally would've reorganized these so that Politics switches places with Ecology, and possibly have Democratic become the advance to be aided by Cybernetic.

As for the drone problem, my suggestion is a direct reduction in drones for factions in general, much like the Free Drones. If working with vanilla SMAC and finding this option not available, instead give each faction +1 talent per four people, except for Lal (per two people instead) and Zakharov (no extra talents or drones). There's also the idea of using the Talent SE, and giving +1 to either each faction or each choice of one of the SE categories.

Increasing maintenance costs of base facilities and decreasing Efficiency rates might also make ICS look less like a sure thing.

**Hydro** · April 30, 2008, 22:52

Sir Maniac,

Interesting ideas. The SEs seem to have some similarity to SMAniaC mod.

As you say, +2 Eco is very powerful. So would Subsistence be +2 Eco? Your summary shows Subsistence Economy as having no effects.

A different SE makes the game play very differently and can nerf tried-and-true strategies (as I'm learning the hard way in my latest PBEM using SMAniaC as Morgan). As with any change, the results can be unpredictable - which is generally a good thing to stir things up a bit.

A few questions. What is 'Autarky'? Also, I'm not quite sure what your Ecology SE is based upon.

Hydro

**Maniac** · May 3, 2008, 11:14

By that nature, what kinds of Econ values will Morgan, Yang, and Cha Dawn have? Will the latter two be kept from running both Free Market and Wealth?

I haven't thought that far.

I don't necessarily see a gameplay problem with the Hive getting +2 Eco (they can always be given other penalties to compensate), but there are of course ideological problems with them being able to run Demo+FM. Perhaps forbid running FM, and give PENALTY to Democracy (doubles the negative effects of that SE choice). Morgan would just keep their +1 Eco. Could be given extra Commerce to boost the value of trade routes. The Cult of Planet probably wants to work Xenofungus tiles anyway (which don't get a boost from +2 Eco), so they would be naturally disinclined to run FM+Wealth without needing further restrictions.

I can't help but doubt whether you meant to have the Network Backbone remove the -2 Econ from the Enclosed choice. Same goes for the negative effects of Wealth and Hybrid for the Cloning Vats. I personally would've reorganized these so that Politics switches places with Ecology, and possibly have Democratic become the advance to be aided by Cybernetic.

Good point. Democratic, Planned or Knowledge probably make the most sense to be boosted by the Network Backbone. Not sure what to do with the Cloning Vats. That project also affects all SE choices affecting Growth: Planned, Hybrid and Terraformed. Planned and Terraformed become kinda useless, and Hybrid creates a weird image: being 'green' yet still having a massive population boom.

Increasing maintenance costs of base facilities and decreasing Efficiency rates might also make ICS look less like a sure thing.

Surely increasing base facility maintenance cost would encourage ICSing?

Anyway, besides drones at a later point, an increased cost of colony pods, formers and crawlers to something similar like Civ4 would probably solve ICS.

As you say, +2 Eco is very powerful. So would Subsistence be +2 Eco? Your summary shows Subsistence Economy as having no effects.

All the SE choices of one line should be given +2 Eco. For example:

None: +2 Eco, -1 Planet
Enclosed (Biosphere): +1 Ind, +1 Pro
Terraformed: +2 Eco, +2 Gro, +1 Mor, -3 Pla,
Hybrid: +2 Eco, +2 Pla, +2 Eff, -2 Gro

A different SE makes the game play very differently and can nerf tried-and-true strategies (as I'm learning the hard way in my latest PBEM using SMAniaC as Morgan). As with any change, the results can be unpredictable - which is generally a good thing to stir things up a bit.

You want to try these out in SMAniaC? I think only minimal changes would be necessary.

A few questions. What is 'Autarky'?

Autarky - Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autarky

Basically economically self-sufficient bases or factions. In the SMAC context renewable energy would probably be used to achieve this.

Also, I'm not quite sure what your Ecology SE is based upon.

I've never really liked that forests, even before hybrid forests are available, are considered Planet-friendly and reduce ecological damage. Nor do I like the Free Market <-> Green polarization in SMAC. The problem is that these effects only make sense in an Earth context, in which forests are of course more ecological than mines, factories and all that, and where one can make a good argument that free market without regulations is bad for the environment. Problem of the 'commons' or whatever it is called again.

This doesn't make sense in SMAC however. I assume the reason mind worms attack you is NOT specifically because you're damaging/polluting the environment in general, but because you're destroying *their* environment/ecological system. This is an important distinction. Why? Because it is possible to think of an economy/ecological approach which would avoid pollution and take good care of the terran ecology (and thus be considered 'green'), yet intends to destroy the native Chiron ecology. (An economy which intends to preserve Chiron ecology should probably be called Red or Pink instead of Green.)

So for Planetfall I've ditched the concept of a Green economy, and replaced it with a polarization between a Hybrid and Terraformed ecology. Terraformers intend to destroy the native Chiron ecology and replace it with a Terran once. Hybrid Ecology rather intends to merge the terran and chiron ecologies so they can live together. Hybrid Forests fit in here. Un-hybrid forests should realistically piss off Planetmind though.

Enclosed Biosphere is the third choice besides embracing or destroying Planet. It's ignoring/coexisting with Planet. Under this SE choice everyone would live underground (eg as in the Hive) or under Pressure Domes so there is no contact between the terran and chiron ecologies. All food would be grown in greenhouses etc.

***

In the meanwhile I've thought of another civic which I'll probably include in Planetfall as well: Consensus.

Politics

Mission Command
Democratic: +2 Res, -2 Pol,
Police State: +2 Pol
Consensus: +2 Talent, +2 Probe, -1 Eff

Economics

Subsistence
Free Market: +1 Econ, +1 Res
Planned: +2 Grow, +1 Ind, -2 Res
Autarky: +2 Eff, +2 Sup,

Values

Survival
Power: +2 Mor, +1 Sup, -1 Ind
Knowledge: +2 Res, +1 Eff, -2 Pro
Wealth: +1 Econ, +1 Ind, -2 Sup

Ecology

None: -1 Planet
Enclosed (Biosphere): +1 Ind, +1 Pro, -2 Eco
Terraformed: +2 Gro, +1 Mor, -3 Pla,
Hybrid: +2 Pla, +2 Eff, -2 Gro

Reason why I ditched Fundamentalism is because:

1) The Believers have Terraformed as their favourite SE choice (making Fundy kinda redundant). No on likes the Believers or Fundamentalism in unmodded SMAC, so I figured I'd make them like Terraformers instead. As a consequence you can actually get along with the Believers in SMAniaC! It still fits with their existing ideology, as they view Planet as their promised land/Eden, and have -1 Planet SE.

2) Cybernetic was removed, so the Consciousness needed a new favourite SE choice. They'd get impunity from the negative effects of this SE choice.

The idea behind Consensus is that decisions are made by a collective deliberation of all citizens. Would require some instant communication by everyone. Such a 'collective' could arise through cybernetic means or psionics means (telepathic matrix?). Of course before that Consensus could be considered similar to Fundamentalism, and everyone would agree with each other on the course to follow because they're brainwashed by some strong ideology.

**TimeTraveler** · May 3, 2008, 23:22

Originally posted by Maniac I haven't thought that far.

I don't necessarily see a gameplay problem with the Hive getting +2 Eco (they can always be given other penalties to compensate), but there are of course ideological problems with them being able to run Demo+FM. Perhaps forbid running FM, and give PENALTY to Democracy (doubles the negative effects of that SE choice). Morgan would just keep their +1 Eco. Could be given extra Commerce to boost the value of trade routes. The Cult of Planet probably wants to work Xenofungus tiles anyway (which don't get a boost from +2 Eco), so they would be naturally disinclined to run FM+Wealth without needing further restrictions.

What would that weakness be, though? Having a penalty to Democratic doesn't sound like enough. I suppose -1 efficiency might work, considering Police State and Planned no longer decrease efficiency.

If Yang's major penalty was to remain at -2 Econ (compared to everyone else), he's going to need some major benefits, like increasing Growth and Industry to +2 each. To keep a player Yang from going overpowered, banning Free Market would be a good idea. (Maybe the Gaians' new anti-ideology could be Terraformed.)

In SMAX, the Planet Cult's anti-ideology is Wealth already. Keeping it so in this game, plus stretching their Econ to -2 (compared to others), plus granting some extra bonuses, might be a good idea. And naturally, their ideology would be Hybrid. If we want the cult's anti-ideology to be terraformed that badly, but still want to keep out +2 Econ, the Cult's Econ could stretch out to -3 (compared to others). Since this would really place them at -1, which would just mean -1 energy at the HQ base, we could probably stop there.

I was almost going to beef up the Enclosed option until I realized it'd have crazy synergy with Free Market and Wealth. So every faction (instead of just the Morgans, Hive, and Cult) would have to get penalties for using it.

Originally posted by Maniac Good point. Democratic, Planned or Knowledge probably make the most sense to be boosted by the Network Backbone. Not sure what to do with the Cloning Vats. That project also affects all SE choices affecting Growth: Planned, Hybrid and Terraformed. Planned and Terraformed become kinda useless, and Hybrid creates a weird image: being 'green' yet still having a massive population boom.

Planned already looks useless. Even when that -2 was just efficiency, I never used it. Here, I'd suggest its bonuses be transformed to +1 growth, +3 industry. Maybe the SEs to be directly aided by the cloning vats could be Terraformed (which would simplify to +1 Morale) and Power. And with that, the Values row and Ecology row should switch places, with Power on the lower right (cloning vats), Knowledge on the lower left (network backbone), and Terraformed on the left of row 3 (cloning vats). Not much we can do about Hybrid. Green was an eco-friendly growth-reducer that was also affected by the Cloning Vats in a similar manner.

Originally posted by Maniac Surely increasing base facility maintenance cost would encourage ICSing?

Why would it? More bases -> more base facilities -> more facility maintenance -> less money left over. This would be more heavily noticed if facility maintenance costs were to increase. Even facilities like Energy Banks would cost more money than they provide unless in a large base that's collecting good amounts of energy.

Originally posted by Maniac Anyway, besides drones at a later point, an increased cost of colony pods, formers and crawlers to something similar like Civ4 would probably solve ICS.

It would help, at least.

Originally posted by Maniac Terraformers intend to destroy the native Chiron ecology and replace it with a Terran once.

Huh. I've always thought of the ultimate goal of a Terraform Ecology being the transformation of the planet into something that looks kinda like Coruscant: covered in an urban environment. It rather seems like if such a faction was to achieve transcendence, they'd probably have to use a hyper-powerful internet, instead of the fungus and Planetmind.

Two final notes.

1. What should the Free Drones' new ideology be? They originally preferred Eudaimonic.

2. I hope Terraformed is an early game option. Otherwise, that -3 Planet will be crippling. Makes me think of a game I was playing where Planet alone forced me to switch to Green, despite how I was also running Cybernetic. Part of me rather suggests changing it to -2 Planet.

**Maniac** · May 4, 2008, 22:45

Originally posted by TimeTraveler
Planned already looks useless. Even when that -2 was just efficiency, I never used it.

Then you never popboomed?

More bases -> more base facilities -> more facility maintenance -> less money left over.

The thought pattern goes like this: base facilities cost more in maintenance => they're a worse investment than they were before => so you should forget about building facilities and invest your resources in other more profitable strategies instead => like ICSing.

1. What should the Free Drones' new ideology be? They originally preferred Eudaimonic.

Code:

Gaians	Hybrid
Morgan	FM
UoP	Knowl
Believers	Terraform
PKs	Demo
Hive	Pol State
Sparta	Power
CyCon	Consensus
Drone	Planned
Angel	Demo
Pirate	Power
Cult	Hybrid
Usurper	Power
Caretaker	Enclosed
Bree	Hybrid
Atlantis	Autarky
Templar	Police Sta
Genesis	Wealth

**TimeTraveler** · May 4, 2008, 23:30

Originally posted by Maniac
Then you never popboomed?

Not until getting the Cloning Vats, anyway. Most of the time, the way I play, by the time I get to working on base facilities, I find it more worthwhile to build something that'll allow new citizens to be something other than doctors or empathi.

Originally posted by Maniac
The thought pattern goes like this: base facilities cost more in maintenance => they're a worse investment than they were before => so you should forget about building facilities and invest your resources in other more profitable strategies instead => like ICSing.

That's a good point. o.o Okay, maybe a lot of those should have less of a maintenance cost, especially those that remove drones and such.

Originally posted by Maniac

Code:

Gaians	Hybrid
Morgan	FM
UoP	Knowl
Believers	Terraform
PKs	Demo
Hive	Pol State
Sparta	Power
CyCon	Consensus
Drone	Planned
Angel	Demo
Pirate	Power
Cult	Hybrid
Usurper	Power
Caretaker	Enclosed
Bree	Hybrid
Atlantis	Autarky
Templar	Police Sta
Genesis	Wealth

Three Hybrid factions... o.o And yeah, Planned works for the Drones.

Some more ideas for large bases.
For all factions (perhaps in the SE)...
Increase Talents
Increase Growth
Decrease Support
Decrease Efficiency (maybe)
Increase Hab Complex and Habitation Dome limits

More thoughts about Enclosed. You say it should be more of a Specialist-style Economy, correct? Here, I'd suggest something that would make specialists more powerful and worthwhile. (Or at least stuff in the field less worthwhile). Amazingly enough, the stat that specialists (specifically Librarians and upwards) would benefit from the most is Research. Another thing to note is that if efficiency was decreased, there'd be even less reason to rely on the field, while specialists remain unaffected. So I'd suggest, in addition to its normal affects, have Enclosed provide a Research bonus and Efficiency penalty.

**Hydro** · May 5, 2008, 09:36

Pop booming is one of the most powerful tools you have and factions that can't pop boom or pop boom by SE are handicapped. The AI only seems to pop boom by accident.

Cloning Vats comes VERY late! By that time I'm gone through several pop boom events to ratchet up my resource base.

I still don’t quite understand the default +2 Eco, and especially how it will interact with other SE options (see below).

Some of the SE bonuses/penalties seem a bit strange:
• POLITICS
 Police – no penalty? None at all?
 Dem – +2 research seems a bit odd. And there are no societal benefits, such as efficiency and growth?
 Consensus – how is this different from Democracy?
• ECONOMICS
 Subsistence – should be +2 Eco (right?)
 FM – Very odd to get LESS Eco when you switch from Subsistence (+2 Eco) to FM (only +1). In fact, FM will be a deal killer (if you’ll forgive the pun).
 Planned – why -2 research? I think an efficiency penalty makes more sense, personally
 Autarky is an obscure and kind of a wonky word. Perhaps Protectionist would be more intuitive? Also, with no penalty and two powerful benefits this may be a no brainer, especially if the default is +2 Eco.
• VALUES – no real gripes here. But what is “-2 Pro” under Knowledge? Is this short for Production (e.g. – Industry)?
• ECOLOGY
 Enclosed/Biosphere – not clear what this is supposed to mean. Is this an enclosure, like bio-domes? If so, that doesn’t make much sense since all cities on Chiron will have an enclosed biosphere due to the high nitrogen content of the atmosphere (nitrogen narcosis). Also, what is “+1 Pro”?
 Terraformed – perhaps a better term might be Green (as in Earth ecology, hostile to Chiron ecology).
 Hybrid – perhaps this could be Red (as in favoring Chiron or a Chiron-Earth hybrid)

An interesting thought experiment would be to see how various combinations would sort themselves out for totaled SE. That, in the end, is what will define if the various SEs are useful.

Also, a critical aspect is what techs enable the SE. Late game SE is generally not worthwhile since by then the game is long since decided. The same is true to a lesser extent for mid game SE. Early game SE choices are where make-or-break decisions are made.

Lots of great ideas here! I like mixing things up. But, the key will be to try them out. Perhaps a variant of SMAniaC with these as a trial run would be best?

Hydro

**Maniac** · May 20, 2008, 16:11

That's a good point. o.o Okay, maybe a lot of those should have less of a maintenance cost, especially those that remove drones and such.

Or just remove facility maintenance altogether, like Civ4 did.

So I'd suggest, in addition to its normal affects, have Enclosed provide a Research bonus and Efficiency penalty.

Sounds like sound logic. A problem though is that there are already three Research-increasing SE choices, which add up to +5 Research. And that's the maximum effective value. (+6 Research has the same effect as +5 Research.) So higher values being possible is an AI trap.

I still don’t quite understand the default +2 Eco, and especially how it will interact with other SE options (see below).

ALL SE choices of a certain line would get +2 Eco. So assuming it were the Economics line, Subsistence would give +2 Eco, and Free Market +3 Eco.

Police – no penalty? None at all?

It also has one less benefit. No + Support.

Dem – +2 research seems a bit odd. And there are no societal benefits, such as efficiency and growth?

Democratic entails free speech/thought and all that kind of stuff. Would encourage/allow innovative intellectual thought I assume => +Research. In fact, myself I don't understand how Democratic could possibly be related to Growth and Efficiency.

Consensus – how is this different from Democracy?

"The idea behind Consensus is that decisions are made by a collective deliberation of all citizens. Would require some instant communication by everyone. Such a 'collective' could arise through cybernetic means or psionics means (telepathic matrix?). Of course before that, Consensus could be considered similar to Fundamentalism, and everyone would agree with each other on the course to follow because they're brainwashed by some strong ideology."

Democratic would be the contemporary thing, a pluralist society (=> conflicts of interests inherent) with party politics and individual human rights.

Planned – why -2 research? I think an efficiency penalty makes more sense, personally

I like to avoid giving Efficiency penalties. While the human player knows -3 and -4 Eff should be avoided at all costs, and -2 Eff is only good for the early game until you get Democratic (in unmodded SMAC), the AI doesn't have this common sense, and you'll sometimes see them ruin their own economy by having a very negative Efficiency rating.

Autarky is an obscure and kind of a wonky word. Perhaps Protectionist would be more intuitive? Also, with no penalty and two powerful benefits this may be a no brainer, especially if the default is +2 Eco.

I've been familiar with the concept "Autarky" for very long.

Anyway, Protectionist does not convey the full meaning. Besides independence from foreign bases/trade, I figured it could also mean each base is an independent economical unit by itself.

Also, with no penalty and two powerful benefits this may be a no brainer, especially if the default is +2 Eco.

Yeah I agree. Not sure what the penalty could be though. Perhaps just a -1 Industry. Kind of a boring penalty, but it does the trick I guess.

Pro = Probe

Enclosed/Biosphere – not clear what this is supposed to mean. Is this an enclosure, like bio-domes? If so, that doesn’t make much sense since all cities on Chiron will have an enclosed biosphere due to the high nitrogen content of the atmosphere (nitrogen narcosis).

Yeah, I can't really decide on the perfect term to convey the meaning. Anyway, while I assume, especially in the early decades after Planetfall, everyone would live in biodomes, it is not the intention of everyone to live in such domes forever. Eg I assume terraformers would eventually like to transform the atmosphere into something more earthlike and breathable. Also while hybrids and terraformers (or Reds and Greens) would grow their food under the open sky (again, eventually), Enclosed ecologists would grow it all in greenhouses, and could eg survive on a delicious diet of kelp and other algae. Nor would they have any intention to ever make forests grow on Chiron. They would also go much further in recycling all their resources.

Hmm, perhaps the colour associated with Enclosed Biopshere could be Blue, the colour of water. Since *water* bases require advanced recycling, pressure dome, kelp technology, etc.

Terraformed – perhaps a better term might be Green (as in Earth ecology, hostile to Chiron ecology).

I would like that.

Wouldn't it cause even more confusion though, considering unmodded SMAC associates 'Green' with 'Chiron-friendly'?

**Hydro** · May 20, 2008, 17:57

Originally posted by Maniac

Yeah, I can't really decide on the perfect term to convey the meaning. Anyway, while I assume, especially in the early decades after Planetfall, everyone would live in biodomes, it is not the intention of everyone to live in such domes forever. Eg I assume terraformers would eventually like to transform the atmosphere into something more earthlike and breathable. Also while hybrids and terraformers (or Reds and Greens) would grow their food under the open sky (again, eventually), Enclosed ecologists would grow it all in greenhouses, and could eg survive on a delicious diet of kelp and other algae. Nor would they have any intention to ever make forests grow on Chiron. They would also go much further in recycling all their resources.

Terraform the entire atmosphere? That would be quite a job! Also it would play havoc with the ecosystem of Chiron. I'd imagine Planet would go nuts with a huge spasm to remove the cancer that threatens its survival.

I'd think that if we wanted to be free of biodomes we'd either engineer ourselves to tolerate the atmosphere, engineer a bio symbiot to filter it for us, or filter the nitrogen and other nasties with build-in scrubbers/filters (cyborg like). Likewise for Chriron's high gravity. Early on it would be crippling and lead to significantly shorter life spans. Eventually we'd partially adapt, and later bio or mechanically engineer ourselves to thrive in a 1.3g world.

Consensus – keep in mind that the city and even empire populations of Chiron are small – hundreds of thousands. A direct democracy as you describe would not be at all difficult with the application of technology.

Eco benefits – with a static +2 eco (and +1 energy in each square) any increase in eco has vastly diminishing returns. The key, as you note, is +2 with the benefits of greater eco being relatively trivial. Perhaps that is the point?

Demo – compared to the old Command Economies a democracy is more efficient way of allocating resources. That was certainly true in the USSR, although China is now turning that on its head (its Police/FM SE is perhaps masking waste/corruption, I’d think). Regardless, this is a matter of perception.

Autarky – a closed society could have a -1 Industry and perhaps -1 growth. After all, you are a closed society in a psychological and almost physical way.

I still like the symbolism of Red and Green. But then I enjoyed Robinson’s Red/Green/Blue Mars series. I’d bet that people playing the Mod would figure out Red and Green pretty quickly, especially since they are side by side - and are mystery words! After all, they’ll also have no idea what Autarky is and will make a run for the dictionary (like I did).

As usual, very good work. I LOVE all the new ideas! It’s what keeps the game fresh.

Hydro

**vyeh** · May 20, 2008, 18:48

Originally posted by Hydro
Demo – compared to the old Command Economies a democracy is more efficient way of allocating resources. That was certainly true in the USSR, although China is now turning that on its head (its Police/FM SE is perhaps masking waste/corruption, I’d think). Regardless, this is a matter of perception.

Do you mean democracy or democracy/free market?

I'm sure the Scandinavian countries consider themselves democracies (although some consider them to have a socialist economy).

I'm not intending to start a debate -- I just want to know what you intended.

**Maniac** · May 20, 2008, 22:42

Originally posted by Hydro
Terraform the entire atmosphere? That would be quite a job!

They did it in Red/Green/Blue Mars?

Also it would play havoc with the ecosystem of Chiron. I'd imagine Planet would go nuts with a huge spasm to remove the cancer that threatens its survival.

Thus explaining the Terraformer's -3 Planet.

I'd think that if we wanted to be free of biodomes we'd either engineer ourselves to tolerate the atmosphere, engineer a bio symbiot to filter it for us, or filter the nitrogen and other nasties with build-in scrubbers/filters (cyborg like).

A symbiot sounds very fitting for the Reds. Though I can't imagine the Believers (which I'd view as the stereotypical Terraformer) doing something like that. It would make them impure or something.

Eco benefits – with a static +2 eco (and +1 energy in each square) any increase in eco has vastly diminishing returns. The key, as you note, is +2 with the benefits of greater eco being relatively trivial. Perhaps that is the point?

I don't know. +1 Commerce, +2 energy per base and +10% research sounds decent to me. Especially considering the 'civic' has no penalties. Of course impossible to say for sure in theory.

Demo – compared to the old Command Economies a democracy is more efficient way of allocating resources. That was certainly true in the USSR, although China is now turning that on its head (its Police/FM SE is perhaps masking waste/corruption, I’d think). Regardless, this is a matter of perception.

As vyeh said, IMO you're comparing politics with economics. But anyway, instead of looking at the word 'Efficiency', let's look at the effects: you can build more bases easily, and you can build bases further away without losing lots of energy. A large country in other words. I don't see why a democracy would be especially good at maintaining such an empire. Well, I can come up with some good arguments, but I can also come up with some arguments why Police State or Fundy would be better at it.

**Hydro** · May 21, 2008, 08:52

Vyeh – that’s my point. The effects of politics and economy can be hard to untangle.

Politics and SE: with your SE the politics of Democracy will be LESS stable than that of a Police State due to your Police bonuses. Simply put, Democracies will be much smaller due to drone control problems. The +2 Research bonus for Demo is tempting, but frankly going Police State is a no brainer – you get more resources due to the enhanced social stability (at no cost since no infrastructure is required) with no penalty. More resources with less investment in a PS means you build more stuff, offsetting the +2 Research. Therefore, I’d suggest that Demo get +2 Efficiency to counter the Police effects (allowing a larger empire of smaller bases, with somewhat fewer B-drones), or at least eliminate the -2 Police from Demo so both choices are penalty free. Either that or give PS a penalty, like in SMAniaC where PS gets you -3 research (as I recall). Now THAT is a real penalty.

Economy – my experience is that bonuses beyond +2 Eco are worth very little in the early game and are of marginal worth in later game (Commerce bonuses really kick in later due to multiplier effects on your energy production at developed bases). The benchmark is +2 Eco with the +1 Energy/tile, and if everyone has that then there is little incentive to move to a higher Eco rating and a HUGE incentive to mitigate any Eco penalty that results in SE other than +2 Eco (e.g. – Hive and Cult).

Mars terraforming – ah, but the difference is that on Mars there was no biosphere fighting for equilibrium (as occurs on Earth), nor was there a pre-sentient Planet that will be most annoyed that its biozone is being shredded by uppity monkeys!

Hydro

**Maniac** · May 21, 2008, 22:51

Hmm, perhaps change the Democratic penalty to something non-economic like -2 Morale. Due to Creches, it won't affect your defensive abilities (even improve them), but it will make war in general harder.

**TimeTraveler** · May 23, 2008, 22:28

I probably should've responded some time ago. >.>;

Originally posted by Hydro
Pop booming is one of the most powerful tools you have and factions that can't pop boom or pop boom by SE are handicapped. The AI only seems to pop boom by accident.

The way I play, by the time I get the Children's Creche up and running, I'm already dealing with keeping soon-to-exist population from rioting. If that handicaps me, then it handicaps me. And the only way around it is to wait on building more colony pods or whatever.

Originally posted by Hydro Cloning Vats comes VERY late! By that time I'm gone through several pop boom events to ratchet up my resource base.

Meh. Once I grab the wonder, the first thing on my mind is that I should beeline to Eudaimonia to grab the Telepathic Matrix. >.>;

Originally posted by Hydro An interesting thought experiment would be to see how various combinations would sort themselves out for totaled SE. That, in the end, is what will define if the various SEs are useful.

I'm already imagining combining Enclosed, Wealth, and Free Market.

Originally posted by Hydro Also, a critical aspect is what techs enable the SE. Late game SE is generally not worthwhile since by then the game is long since decided. The same is true to a lesser extent for mid game SE. Early game SE choices are where make-or-break decisions are made.

Yeah. I hope the Ecology ones show up early enough. It does remind me of how I recently decided to mod SMAC so that the Future Society choices came earlier, like with Mind/Machine Interface, Centauri Genetics, and Planetary Economics.

Originally posted by Maniac Or just remove facility maintenance altogether, like Civ4 did.

That works, too.

Sounds like sound logic. A problem though is that there are already three Research-increasing SE choices, which add up to +5 Research. And that's the maximum effective value. (+6 Research has the same effect as +5 Research.) So higher values being possible is an AI trap.

If that's true, then perhaps one point each of the research bonus of other traits (Democratic, Free Market) should be replaced by other bonuses. Alternatively, give all factions a -2 research penalty, in much the same way that they get a +2 Economy bonus.

Originally posted by Maniac I like to avoid giving Efficiency penalties. While the human player knows -3 and -4 Eff should be avoided at all costs, and -2 Eff is only good for the early game until you get Democratic (in unmodded SMAC), the AI doesn't have this common sense, and you'll sometimes see them ruin their own economy by having a very negative Efficiency rating.

Maybe everyone should get an efficiency bonus, too, then.

Originally posted by Maniac I would like that.

Wouldn't it cause even more confusion though, considering unmodded SMAC associates 'Green' with 'Chiron-friendly'?

I'd keep that civic named 'terraformed', if to avoid confusion and to perhaps imply the possibility of terriforming Chiron into something unlike its former self or Earth.

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SMAC SE system based on Planetfall civics

SMAC SE system based on Planetfall civics

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