[C4:AC] Features? (Religion, resources, etc.)

[Rubin]

Religion and culture are important features to Civ4--and I think it adds to the fun of Civ4. However, do we want these features in a hybrid mod? And if so, any ideas on how to make them fit into the SMAC/X universe?

Resources add new strategic choices. In SMAC/X we have the Uranium Flats, Mount Planet, etc. I see no conflicts in fitting a resource system in the mod, but it would require gameplay balancing. For instance, Monoliths could be required to build psi units; alien artifact sites could boost commerce; nutrient resources (of various kinds) could improve city health.

Any comments, ideas, suggestions on this?

[TimeTraveler]

I would not make any one resource necessary for building all psi units, unless that resource was fungus. Just imagine if the Gaians couldn't find any monoliths? Still, resources could come in handy. How would fusion-powered vehicles run without deuterium or tritium or helium-3 available? Or Singularity powered vehicles without that so-called Vizorium-5? I wonder what sort of resources would be necessary for drives or weapons that use gravitics or lasers or space craft. Like how much aluminum exists on Planet?

I think it would be nice and relatively simple to have culture in the game much like how it does for Civ4.

I wonder if there's a way for a certain faction, namely the Believers, to be given a religion (like their conclave bible) at the start of the game for free. Or if it would even be realistic to do so. I also wonder what religions would exist, if any future ones would form (like something out of Secrets of Creation), and where in the tech tree they'd form. Maybe at least one of them would be centered around Planet? I also wonder what should be done about major religions and philosophies that formed back on Earth. The only Earth religion we're shown to make it to Planet in any form is Christianity, through Miriam. Although there's also atheism if at least through Yang's agenda. Not that I know if it'd count. So what will we do about other Earth-oriented religions like Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism?

[Blake]

Religion/Ideology

I was working on an design for religions in C4AC actually. Here it is.

Religion is one of the best things about CIV4. I feel the concept can definitely be adapted to SMAC, since SMAC is very much a game about ideologies and such. Obviously the system can't be dropped in unchanged, in SMAC there are things like ideological conflict which would have to be accounted for.

Here is a preliminary design for an ideology system:

Each faction has it's own Ideology. Bear in mind though that when a faction lands on Planet, they haven't really formed their ideology yet, their struggling to survive and the grand ideology of the faction is just a twinkle in the leaders eye. Thus the ideological movement would only be "born" later in the game, tied to tech presumably.

For example: The University founds Technocracy upon discovering Cyberethics. Technocracy provides +15% research in a base, in a believer base it creates an additional drone.

Ideology Basics:
1) An ideology can only be founded by it's faction, if another faction researches the tech first it has no special effect.
2) The ideology is founded upon researching or otherwise obtaining the tech.
3) Each ideology has unique effects in a base.
4) Ideologies can spread naturally or via a special unit (ie Believer Preacher, Morganite Entrepreneur etc).
5) Ideologies may clash with the belief systems of a faction, in that case an additional drone will be created.
6) Additional drones will be created if there are more than 2 ideologies in a base.
7) Sharing of ideologies can create diplomatic positives or negatives, depending on how well received the ideology is.

Here are some preliminary ideas (feel free to think of better names):

University: Technocracy (Cyberethics), Increased Research.
Believers: Christianity (Social Pysch), +1 Happy in base.
Peacekeepers: Liberty (Ethical Calculus), Increased Efficiency.
Hive: Unity (Intellectual Integrity), Increased Production.
Morganites: Materialism (Industrial Automation), Increased Energy (credit) income.
Spartans: Survivalism (Doctrine: Loyalty), Increased Morale in base.
Gaians: Conservationism (Centuari Empathy), reduced Ecodamage in base.


The people of each faction may find deep conflict in certain ideologies:
University: Believers. (Atheists, nuff said)
Believers: University. (Theists, nuff said)
Peacekeepers: Spartans. (Ask questions first, shoot later).
Hive: Peacekeepers. (How about we just trust the Chairman.)
Morganites: Hive (No possessions?!? You gotta be fricken' kidding me!)
Spartans: Morganites (Only soft weaklings need comfort).
Gaians: The Gaians are tolerant (although everyone tends to think the Gaian ideology is wussy and unworkable)


Effects on diplomacy:
+1-3 You accepted our Ideology.
+1-3 You have shared your Ideology with us.
-1-3 You reject our Ideology.
-1-4* You force your Ideology upon us.
All of those would scale based on the %age of bases the ideology has spread to and the duration of the relationship.

Certain SE and facilities have an effect:
Police State prevents the spread of non-faction ideologies.
Punishment Spheres eliminate all non-faction ideologies from the base.
Both count as a rejection for diplomacy purposes.
Fundamentalism increases the spread of the faction ideology.

[Kinjiru]

Well thought out Blake - excellent job!

I really love the whole clashing ideologies produces drones bit. Opens up a whole new attack method in MP games - reduce your opponents ability to produce anything by making increasing their drone count. A couple of weaker allied players could even bring a much stronger opponent to a domestic halt by spreading two or more idealogies into an opponents bases.

I am a bit hesitant about the fact that only the right faction gets anything from being first to reach a related tech. While I get the point, it still seems a bit odd. Basically, the tech becomes pointless (except as a bridge to other techs) for all but one of the factions. Every tech should have a benefit.

Maybe we could take it the other way... 'ideology' techs only kick off the intellectual revolution if the 'right' faction is the first to reseearch the tech (as in your original thesis). However, if another faction is first to research that tech, then the ideology can NEVER be founded? Maybe a bit harsh, but it would certainly bring the risk/reward question into sharp focus when deciding on a path through the tree. Would also make Blind Research even more interesting!

[Rubin]

Regarding Ideology/Religion:

I've been thinking of having SE settings and Religion (ideology) affect each other. For example, if you have the "Conclave Fundamentalism" religion in a base, that base will receive extra benefits from running the Fundamentalism SE choice, e.g. +10% unit production. Other ideology/SE combinations may confer different benefits (+ 1 happy, +10% research, etc.). Benefits can be tied to facilities too.

I think it would be interesting to having multiple ideologies present in a base cause some negative effects (more drones, higher upkeep, etc.)

Each faction could start with a preset ideology and perhaps be immune to any negative effects from their preset ideology. Certain technologies may make more "ideology" options available (spreading, special buildings, etc.)--including the option to spread ideologies (or force them onto your population) that are not yet present in any of your faction's bases.

Perhaps have a system (like culture influence) to determine which ideology is dominant in bases with more than one ideology present; and let this decide which benefits/negatives to apply. Perhaps allow ideologies to fade over time--eventually removing support for a particular ideology in a base; this could be affected by your preset ideology and your current SE choice.

Founding new religions in Civ4 is fun, but I am not so sure this would apply to SMAC/X.

Edit: In Civ4 religion plays a major role. Perhaps make ideologies play a minor role in the mod and not letting ideology become a strategy in itself.

[GeoModder]

In combination with running a faction's ideology, it could be modded that certain facilities (unique buildings anyone? ) can be constructed by this faction and give extra benefits (or even drawbacks if switching ideology away from the faction's default one ).

Making ideologies minor would go too far away from the intentions of SMAC I believe. Letting decrease the significance later in time makes more sense to me. Either by certain facilities, researching certain technologies or just plain scripted in doesn't make much difference to me.

Personally, I love the presence of multiple "ideologies" in a base causing problems. It forces the player to think about the agreements he/she wants to have with other factions. Total isolanism vs open borders to everyone who's willing.

Also, I would prefer to have ideologies be unique to it's faction. Sure, other factions can follow your ideology, but it's unlikely it would come by heart of the general population of this allied faction, so the benefits shouldn't come over.

Well, here's my ²/³ €cent.

[Rubin]

Originally posted by GeoModder
Making ideologies minor would go too far away from the intentions of SMAC I believe. [...]

I don't know if you are referring to my previous post, but it is of course true that ideologies play a huge part in the SMAC/X concept. What I meant was: When treated as a gameplay feature, religion should play a minor role.

Ideologies would still be a part of the C4:AC concept, even if it was not implemented as a feature (similar to the religion feature of Civ4).

Edit: If "ideologies" are tied to factions, I think it could work having just 7 different ideologies--based on the original 7 SMAC factions (this could be reduced to 6, if we'd want the option to having a faction start with no "ideology"). Should additional factions, i.e. the new SMACX factions, be implemented they simply use one of the preset ideologies. (Some new "factions" could be added as a new leader for an existing faction.)

I wouldn't mind playing against an opponent sharing my preset ideology and I do not fear that sharing preset ideologies would ruin the balance and gameplay--Hive vs. Hive duel; 12 factions, huge map...

[Darrell01]

What about SMACX ideologies? Eudaimonia, Cybernetic and Thought Control?

[Chaos Theory]

Rather than have ideologies be binary (there/not there), I wonder if we could usurp the culture code and have culture spread by a method other than proximity to bases. For example, culture could be influenced by trade routes, tech trades, proximity of other factions' units, probe actions, and atrocities.

Having ideologies present in certain concentrations, either in absolute terms or relative to other ideologies, could trigger effects. A base with 40% Believer ideology and 1% University ideology would receive the benefits/drawbacks of the Believer ideology, but a base with 40% Believer and 40% University might experience only the drawbacks of both, and increased unrest too.

[Senethro]

I think the addition of bonuses or penalties would be very dangerous. You would get min/maxers collecting as many bonuses as possible and specialising bases.

It might be less risky to simply award infiltration in that base (for very high culture), extra drones/psych depending on diplomatic status and trade bonuses when trading with that base. Oh, and perhaps it should be a component of probe team base subversion too?

[Blake]

Heres some more ideology ideas:

Tie each ideology to a civic and presumably have them come on the SE techs.

If the ideologies associated civic is not being run, it incurs -1 Happy, unless it's the faction ideology in which case running the SE adds +1 happy.

Just having an ideology in a base does nothing other than the happiness effect, but it allows the construction of a special building in the base:

University: Academy +25% Research
Believer: Chapel +2 Happiness.
Peacekeepers: Forum +50% Great People rate.
Morganites: Entertainment Complex +25% EC.
Hive: Feeding Bay +1 Nutrient +2 Hab Limit (/health)
Spartan: Shooting Range +3 Exp.
Gaians: Garden +1 Planet +1 Happy per 10% Pysch.


In terms of special benefits a faction has for using it's own ideologies, vs others using it...
No happiness penalty.
They can choose whether or not to share it (another civ can't choose to "pull" the ideology into their bases)
It can spread under Police State and Punishment spheres don't nuke it.

In terms of stacking ideoligies, using the idea of an assicated civic, then to avoid the happy hit SE becomes restricted - like a Morgan + Peacekeeper alliance would have to both run Demo+Wealth, since there are only a finite number of SE's it wouldn't be possible to negate all of the happiness hits.
Under the CIV model happiness cannot be trivially negated which does make it an effective drag and making the unhappiness negator - the punishment sphere - nuke ideologies is a very appropriate penalty.
Also by tying the benefits to buildings it would be nessecary to sink further resources to actually make use of an ideology, making it a very high investment. Making the special buildings cheap for the native faction could be good here too.

[dacole]

I prefer the first ideas you had blake didn't seem unbalanced to me at all. We still have the original reason to research the tech given in the game. I mean could you see people not researching industrial automation even if they do not get the ideology founding? Would make the game very interesting and make you have to think about your choices much more.

Wow I'm glad I got this started again

[Blake]

However I still like the idea of having a "unique building" for each ideolgy because it increases the investment factor - allowing for more impact overall if the player is willing to put in the investment.
Mind you maybe an ideology could have a certain impact just for existing, but by tying the benefit to further investment it helps make the ideology tech less uber.


Okay other topics:
Resources. I'm not sure about these... we could try and come up with a set of resources (possibly with technobabble names) but I think I'd rather stick with the nut/min/energy resources, maybe with more diversity, but without the resource trading factor.
Still we could have things like "Longlivity Vaccines" provided by the wonder, which provides +1 happiness and so the owner can export that benefit for cash, that'd be pretty cool. So I think we can certainly make use of the resource model at points.

Psych and general happiness:
Civ does not have the concept of Pysch. Instead there is + happy.
I actually like Pysch, especially for a happy model without happiness resouce. As such I suggest making pysch a commerce type.
2 Pysch would equal 1 happiness, pysch would be multiplied by certain buildings, as per SMAC. And I think I'd prefer a pysch slider which converts energy to pysch, rather than the +1 happy per 10% slider type thing, altough some buildings could have that effect as well.

Happiness should definitly be done like CIV, no more drone riots. Instead the drones just don't work. Specialists would be the same, with specialists no longer being automatically pacified.


Great People:

I like Great People, I think we should use them. I'd go with the following GP's:


Great Empath.
Great Thinker.
Great Engineer.
Great Transcdeni(sp?).
Great Commander. (maybe)

(b = beakers, ec = energy credits, p = production, y = psych)
effects would be:
Great Empath: Settle for (2y 4ec), build special buildings (good canidate anyway).
Great Thinker: Settle for (7b 1p), Lightbulb
Great Engineer: Settle for (4p 4ec), Plop building
Great Transcendi: Settle for (4p 4b 2y), Plop building, Lightbulb.


Doctor (+1y +1p): +2gpp (Empath) (Healthy population is more productive?)
Librarian(+3b): +2gpp (Thinker)
Technician(+3ec): +2gpp (Engineer)
Empath(+2y +2ec): +3gpp (Empath)
Thinker(+1y +4b): +3gpp (Thinker)
Engineer(+2p +2ec): +3gpp (Engineer)
Transcdeni(+2p +3ec +3b): +4gpp (Transcendi)

Transcdeni Creation: I think it'd be fun if transcendi are sometimes born from mixed pools containing Empath, Thinker and Engineer. The chance would be something like 50% of the smallest %age, so if you had 20% empath, 30% engineer and 50% Thinker, they'd be a 10% chance of getting a Transcendi.


Them just my thoughts for now.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Blake
Psych and general happiness:
Civ does not have the concept of Pysch. Instead there is + happy.
I actually like Pysch, especially for a happy model without happiness resouce. As such I suggest making pysch a commerce type.
2 Pysch would equal 1 happiness, pysch would be multiplied by certain buildings, as per SMAC. And I think I'd prefer a pysch slider which converts energy to pysch, rather than the +1 happy per 10% slider type thing, altough some buildings could have that effect as well.

I would definitely like this. Is this easy to code?

Happiness should definitly be done like CIV, no more drone riots. Instead the drones just don't work. Specialists would be the same, with specialists no longer being automatically pacified.

Or perhaps drones would work, but the more drones you have, the higher the chance some "barbarian" rebels will spawn near your cities. Currently unhappiness is a purely mathemathical affair which causes economic problems and can only be solved by economic means. I'd prefer if unhappiness was a problem which would also require a military solution. That way you get a less linear and more strategically diverse game.

Same with pollution/unhealthiness. Whack-a-mole pollution cleaning as in previous civ versions is boring micromanagement. But unhealthiness is just a boring math problem which causes economic problems and can only be solved by economics. The SMAC pollution system of fungus and especially mind worms was much more interesting because you had an economic problem which also caused military issues, which meant you had to use more aspects of the game.

[N35t0r]

Maybe rework health to mean the availiable 'room' in a colony (hab requirements), and provide more cheaper buildings, in perhaps the survivalist branch of the tech tree, rather than the existing two huge jumps?

Then add in a resource or two to allow some extra hab room (say, some metal to make lighter alloys, or a way to produce cheap concrete using planet's resources, requiring a tech to work the resource)

The whole 'ecodamage' thing can be tied in to some other thing, with factories and boreholes counting against eco buildings to inhibit or spruce up planet activity (fungus growing a bit more aggressively towards human bases, at least until the first pop?) that will also spice up the early game a bit.