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  • Deimos Experiment

    Deimos experiment is designed to test several changes to the game including changes to alphax.tx file.

    You play as University. Any other faction is designed for AI.

    General description

    Ant-ICS test. Scenario attempts to promote non-ICS strategies. In this case following changes were made:

    - Base tile has 0,0,-1 resources.
    Note:
    It has been found, that a base cannot any longer receive +2 nutrient from a terrain bonus. However, mineral bonus works. Energy bonus works too, but not in the turn, when the base is established. Landmark benefits show ok.

    - Satellites cost now 50 rows, not 12. ICSing has to now have over 4 times more bases in order to receive the same bonus for the cost.

    - Recycling tanks now give only 2 minerals

    - Nutrient restrictions were dropped completely. This is in order to counterbalance the fact that bases may have now serious problems in growing beyond size 1.

    - In order to help human player develop, two supply crawlers (Unity Supply Droids) are provided. These units cost 1 row, so have little value for prototypes or secret projects.

    - AI are given all 3 kinds of satellites, this helps, since Unity Supply Droids do not work ok, if not approprietly conditioned.

    Other test, used two new building types:
    Trade Center, +10 EC/turn
    Central Exchange, +50 EC/turn
    This enhances AI economy in addition to energy satellites. It might be a bit overpowered at first. This scenario gives +70 EC/turn for AI.

    Factional atributes enhanced as in Nexus Experiment
    Many factors improved
    +4 fungus energy
    Dropped, however 200 defensive bonus, for the reason of the next mentioned change

    Armor values doubled:
    --- no armor --- 2
    --- synthmetal - 4
    --- plasma ----- 6,
    etc.
    This change is supposed to counterbalance the fact, that offensive to defensive ratio in the game is of sort 2:1. Now it is more or less 1:1.
    Best offensive now: 30 string weapon
    Best defensive now: 24 stasis generator.
    There is a small issue, that probe team no longer uses that "human" shilouette, but rover one. "No armor" could be set to 1, but I think that "no armor" 2 gives quite advantage to scouting units. This possibly makes game faster. Not to mention, early wars are favouring defenses, what was intended.

    Other changes to alphax.txt

    1) -1 nutrient penalty in mine square is removed.
    2) Copter move points limited to 4
    3) Amphibious Pods are now available for non-combat units
    8) Antigrav Struts are now available for air units
    9) New units:

    Probe Cruiser,
    XX Missile---nerve gas,
    Police Guard---high morale,police, forced cost 1,
    Eco-Formers----high morale,clean,
    Trawler,supply,
    Unity Supply Droid,supply
    Support Copter,6-1-x

    The support copter has "AI plan" set to 1=combat
    Missile weapons, if you can take a closer look what AI does with them.

    Comments on playstyle

    1. The Map.
    You may notice the map as being familiar. If you can bring back some memories...

    2. Free crawlers.
    They are here to offset lost nutrients from base tiles. However, you have only two of them. So use them wisely. Placement of new bases is now this much more important. You might prefer arid and flat tiles, for they cannot give you anything good anyway. You most probably would get nutrients by them, but if you find a better tile with minerals or energy, the choice is yours.

    3. No nutrients restrictions and free formers.
    This here is to facilitate the fact, that lost nutrients from base tile make it very difficult to grow. Your first worker must work at least 3 nutrients on its tile, to get a base growing. Therefore it is possible to build farm on a rainy tile and get 3 nutrients right from the start. Use nutrient bonus tiles wisely. Do not build bases on them, since a base cancells nutrient bonus, as opposed to minerals and energy, as mentioned above. Free formers can help you a lot in establishing new bases early. AI has its nutrient satellites, so they have other way of dealing with things. So far I have not seen any event destroying nutrient satellites, as oppose to minerals and energy, that get destroyed almost 100% of the time.

    4. Nut/min/energy satellites cost now 50.
    So let us say, you have +20% industry. Total cost is 8x50 = 400 minerals. Having 20 bases you get return after 20 turns. Having no industry modification, it is after 25 turns. The return is thus much lower. I have no idea, what AI will do.

    5. Challenge.
    Try to use popboom instead of ICS. Population boom is also somewhat hindered, as you no longer have free 2 nutrients from the base tile. It would need to be offset by an additional crawler. Anyway, I think the game may be quite interesting in the first turns due to all changes mentioned here. Any comments on overall changes to playstyle due to them?

    Installation guide
    This is SMAX mod
    This mod has the following files:
    - alphax.txt
    - helpx.txt
    - scenario.txt
    - deimos-01.sc
    All these files are in folder "SMACX_deimos_01". You can place this folder anywhere on your hard drive, not necessarily in game folder.
    Note:
    You must keep the 3 txt files in this mod in the folder, from which you initiated the game using deoimos-01.sc. Only in this way they can effect the game, as the game file records the path where the scenario has been initiated. If the game cannot find appropriate alphax.txt, helpx.txt and scenario.txt in this folder, it will not use it. Since it is singleplayer, you can place "SMACX_deimos_01" anywhere you wish on hard-drive (easiest way and better than on movable drive).
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Mart; September 28, 2005, 03:07.
    Mart
    Map creation contest
    WPC SMAC(X) Democracy Game - Morganities aspire to dominate Planet

  • #2
    One thing that is quite interesting here is that AI seems to do a good use of those Unity Supply Droids. With Fungusenergy 4, I can see already several of them in AI factions just doing 4 energy/turn. Also AI seems to be quite smart to send them for minerals, anything between 1-4 minerals get crawled. Some though stay idle.

    And they are not pre-set "lurkers" to keep them crawling as long as possible. AI itself sends them for resources.

    Unfortunatelly, as soon as AI starts a secret project they get cashed, despite their low cost of 1 row. Still aiding early-turns AI is a nice thing.

    Unity Supply Droids are disabled, so they cannot be build, only given to a faction at the game start. In connection with their forced cost of 1 row, this prevents human players from building these "affordable" crawler units.

    Has any of the CMNs tried something like that before?
    Mart
    Map creation contest
    WPC SMAC(X) Democracy Game - Morganities aspire to dominate Planet

    Comment


    • #3
      In recent attempt, I got into vendetta with Miriam, since she made a base in the location definitelly I did not want her to be there. So...

      My scouts could do little to a believing colony pod:
      1-2-1 against 0-2-1

      Then surprise:
      My unity rover attempted to attack Believing probe team. It turns out, that "no armor" with value 2 renders probe team as military unit. What is more, my hand guns cannot compete against defense 2. She promptly mindcontrolled one of my bases.
      Without Applied Physics I probably cannot win this war, not to mention Miriam has like 3 times more bases than me.
      Mart
      Map creation contest
      WPC SMAC(X) Democracy Game - Morganities aspire to dominate Planet

      Comment


      • #4
        Something, I haven't seen very often. I placed Gaians on Isle of Deianira. Deirdre was not intimidated by lack of ground for settlements. She got Environmental Economics before 2160. But also she has Weather Paradigm.

        I must add, I checked in scenario editor, she was using 3-4 formers to do it.
        Attached Files
        Mart
        Map creation contest
        WPC SMAC(X) Democracy Game - Morganities aspire to dominate Planet

        Comment


        • #5
          AI raising land!?! Now this is interesting.
          SMAC/X FAQ | Chiron Archives
          The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. --G.B.Shaw

          Comment


          • #6
            Wow!

            You must have hacked something!
            -- What history has taught us is that people do not learn from history.
            -- Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.

            Comment


            • #7
              Those armor increases seem a bit too big, considering the basic +25% base bonus and the easy +25% sensor bonus. There's really nothing to stop a player romping through another faction's territory pillaging everything, and holing up on fungus/rocky tiles to be a big unmovable pests.
              More appropriate would be:
              1 - no armor.
              3 - Synth.
              4 - Plasma.
              6 - Silksteel.
              etc.


              Raising land is actually almost normal for AI's on very small islands with surplus formers and the ability to raise land. But most AI's have gone stupid or expanded by sea long before getting the ability to raise land...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Blake
                ...There's really nothing to stop a player romping through another faction's territory pillaging everything, and holing up on fungus/rocky tiles to be a big unmovable pests.
                I agree that units are more difficult to kill, however, if you send a unit to pillage someone's terrain:
                1) you have to first kill that player's defences, that are difficult to kill, and they get 25% sensor mostly if in field.
                2) in deep enemy territory you do not get 25% base bonus and 25% sensor bonus when attacking
                3) rocky terrain in that player's territory might be already occupied by the terrain owner. so the pest cannot enter there so easily

                The purpose of such 100% defense bonus is exactly to make war more expensive and difficult. You would need more units to inflict real damage. Many offensive units would/might be lost. More artilery would be needed, and possibly top of the offensive technology, in order to make any damage at all. This I think might promote builder style, but more of the hybrid style, that you make defensive units in order to avoid this pillaging, as you point to.
                Raising land is actually almost normal for AI's on very small islands with surplus formers and the ability to raise land. But most AI's have gone stupid or expanded by sea long before getting the ability to raise land...
                I think it is combination here of
                - a lot of formers is ON
                - energy enhancement - satellites, new facilities
                - small island
                Still, I rarely have seen AI doing it, so these things here somehow make it happen.
                ---------
                And I just checked something in 2168.
                Gaians have 1446 EC in bank, income +124 EC/turn
                Raising from 2083 m elevation to over 3000 m elevation costs over 160 EC. So together for all raising operations AI must spend hundreds EC. The reason that AI does not do it often in most of the games would be thus lack of energy. In this setup the energy is so abundant that AI does it.
                Last edited by Mart; September 30, 2005, 11:00.
                Mart
                Map creation contest
                WPC SMAC(X) Democracy Game - Morganities aspire to dominate Planet

                Comment


                • #9
                  Zone of Control isn't really effective at keeping pillagers out. The thing is theres just so much damn land to cover. Maybe armored crawlers/probes would work for the player (I'm mostly talking pre-clean). The AI is going to have trouble though.

                  Also defenders are generally cheaper than offensive units, mainly since defenders can be infantry while offenders need to be more mobile... offensive wars are going to be very very expensive or require a large tech advantage... if playing remotely fair.

                  I'm tempted to try with the high armor settings, but I know I wont be engaging in trench warfare. It'll be more like pillage and burn, infesting enemy territory with my units, self-destructing to clear out stacks (yay abuse), gas and planetbusters vs bases. Damn, now I really want to play lol. Nothing like a good excuse to play ultra-dirty.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Fun scenario!

                    I wont spoil it for others but I will say the fight with Miriam is... interesting. Morgan started out by taking some of her bases but then she pushed him out...

                    Near the start I got big loans from Morgan and Miriam. Later I was out of cash from rushing in defenses... and Morgan gave (GAVE!) me 437 credits, what a lifesaver.

                    I've got VW and PEG so far. I'm not using the crawler upgrade exploit or some other minor exploits. Playing "honestly but dirty".

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Altough due to the strength of the AI factions it's hard to evaluate the balance changes.

                      Morgan is using me as his military general to wage war against the Believers, he has given me far more minerals worth of units than my entire gross mineral production over the entire game. It's hard just supporting the damn things and I have to stay in Free Market to keep him happy, and since he's giving me aircraft I need...
                      fun spheres. Oh well, I was planning on building them anyway.

                      Yang is meanwhile using Miriam as his (highly incompetent) military General, donating oodles of shard noodles. I'm stuck at chaos/fusion, same as Morgan. Miriam is chaos/fission. Yang is at Shard++ (and has HSA), I think the Gaians are about the same, both of them have pestered me with ships, but they promptly buggered off after being angrily barraged by my artillery, Dee's noodles are also commiting suicide, they kill a crawler then next turn fly around and die. Lal could probably have elected himself as supreme leader, but all Lal's base are belong to Santiago. I actually didn't notice this for a while... but I did notice Lal was getting a lot friendlier. I guess Santiago has boosts like Miriams...

                      What I have noticed about the anti-ICS changes is they greatly promote very dense base spacing (hurrah for anti-ICS), because new bases benefit muchly from support, you can't really just found a base in the middle of nowhere and have it prosper. Ofcourse it doesn't help that the AI are picking off scores of crawlers... also as usual the tech path is really weird, fusion and OF before ecological engineering. Treefarms or even just condensors&boreholes would be a godsend.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Blake, thanks a lot for all your remarks. I glad you are having fun with it.
                        Mart
                        Map creation contest
                        WPC SMAC(X) Democracy Game - Morganities aspire to dominate Planet

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I'm going to throw up one (just one) nuts orbital the moment I can afford it, just so new bases can be founded in forest and so my bases stop spontaneously starving to death after a crawler gets plinked.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Blake
                            Morgan started out by taking some of her bases but then she pushed him out...
                            He must have been pacted with you, and moving his units through your territory? Interesting, that Miriam was able to push him out, despite armor times 2 enhancement in this scenario. What was morgan armor then against what Miriam's weapon?
                            -----
                            Any observation re Support Copter? Does AI make them?
                            -----
                            As for my recent observation, AI keeps them on "hold" in bases. I wonder if they go to fight outside anytime.

                            I did short "spying" on AI. For several turns allowed to play the game in scenario editor.
                            Miriam started vendetta. After some time I noticed Morgan attacked Believer base with Fusion Chopper, twice clearing it from units, then a rover entered the base, which due to size 1 vanished. Then Morgan turned over to me the Fusion Copter.
                            Morganic Fusion chopper is listed as assault. I think, that in order to get AI use choppers to attack bases, it should be assault then.
                            Last edited by Mart; October 2, 2005, 04:43.
                            Mart
                            Map creation contest
                            WPC SMAC(X) Democracy Game - Morganities aspire to dominate Planet

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I think Morgan used Mind Control. I've been running FM nearly all game and Morgan has been my pactmate since first contact. Morgan started taking Miriams bases basically right away.

                              The thing is I was so impressed by Morgan's progress against Miriam that I declared Vendetta on Miriam, then a horde of impact totting bible thumpers drove Morgan out and washed up against my defenses. I was fortunate in sneaking in a base on the north-east bottleneck of the inland sea, in the other direction 2 bases needed to be fortified. For the longest time I just used synth defenders + perimeter defenses (luckily got the tech early from Yang or Lal) and let Miriams forces kill themselves. I got 3-pulse just as Miriam got Missile. The snyth stage was very hairy because of Miriams big ass attack bonus, each synth defender was only good for a couple of Miriams units, and she had so many of them.. often like 6 or more swarming in on each front....

                              Also after the synth-era Morgan started donating me units, before that he was just pointlessly suiciding probe teams. He's since given up on probes and just donates me units, enough units to actually drive Miriam back. Otherwise I'd probably still be just holding the line.

                              Something about the attack bonuses, sometimes it seemed Miriam had +50% (alien) +25% (fanatic) and I wasn't getting base bonus, and sometimes Miriam seemed to be getting just the +50% and I was getting base bonus. Dunno if it's a display thing or a load game thing or me going insane thing, but at the start those impact units sure were hitting hard against my synth defenders, even with the sensor and perimeter bonuses. (altough my units were very green)

                              The defenses started working a lot better once I had Command Centers and Creches in place. Also as my units morale increased Miriams attacks became increasingly ineffectual.

                              Once I got the Orbital up I saw that Santiago had crushed both Lal and Dee, Lal still has UN HQ and a few other bases, and a cluster of sea bases, but the jungle is all in Santiagos hands. (and I sneakily hit ctrl-K and saw Santiago did all this with missile+fission tech)
                              Dee has been reduced to scattered sea bases, her homeland completely under Spartan Control. It seems Yang also took some Dee/Lal bases, and they appear to have both surrendered to him. Or maybe he took bases that Santiago took.

                              I think for this mod to really work it'd be nessecary to move Condensors to Cent.Ego, because the human player finds expansion so hard without a ready source of +2 nut tiles (and freshwater sea allows founding bases, but they have no production until assigned a crawler). I guess a start would be okay with some monolith and nut special pops but there needs to be alternatives... (my pops were all native life basically, altough the worms seemed a bit more reluctant to attack)

                              I think the base tile production change actually has no effect on ICS desirability. Reducing the minerals certainly does, but the food reduction just makes it hard for any base to prosper...

                              ICS isn't really about base tile production (altough it can be significant for Morgan), it's more about drone control and hab limits. I'm also unsure about the orbitals change, it seems to just make them generally unusable. The thing is with huge bases with all facilities the resources are put through higher multipliers so orbitals don't overwhelmingly favor ICS. Also it's nessecary to throw up a lot more orbitals when using large bases (like ICS can get away with 7, large bases requires 14).

                              More effective anti-ICS methods might be to modify facilities, something like this: Increase the upkeep cost of multiplier facilities, reduce the construction cost. This would mean a higher drain for ICS'ers. Altough within the existing SMAC framework I don't think there's any way to make ICS undesirable.

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