SMAniaC

[Mark123jansen]

ah ok good to know, ill be a little more carefull in changing my SE settings, and knowing the -1 Talent, Private/protect suddenly seems less overpowered. gj.

[Maniac]

An otherwise normal SMAniaC game featuring AIs boosted by satellites.

Due to all those satellites the AIs will probably have a larger population than you in the start, but you should be able to get even again after popbooming, making the AI an interesting opponent for longer.

Edit: Oh yeah, the AI Probe is AI Only.

[Blake]

Nuclear Missiles: AI only or am I allowed to use them too? And why do they come so early in the game?

[Maniac]

Basically I just found it kind of silly that humans had apparently 'forgotten' how to produce nuclear weapons, especially considering they have fission reactors.

Note they aren't planet busters. Just conventional missiles with nerve gas. If you want, you can use them too if you're prepared to face the usual commerce sanctions.

Sometimes factions such as the Hive, Pirates, Cult or Spartans really like building nukes and actively use them. Fortunately AAA and flechette defenses are available earlier as well, so if you make the research effort it's definitely possible to defend against them.

I'd appreciate feedback though. This unit I'm kinda unsure of, and of some people find it unbalancing, it's of course best removed.

[Blake]

The high attack value and relatively low cost and the fact it can be used non-X does make it pretty overpowered. Especially with self-destruct. Sven is being a right pest with them, using them non-X. Will be ages before I can defend against them and i can't really just leave my coastal bases undefended.

Oh I love all the randomized faction leader personalities. Brother Lal, true to his character, believes strongly in the virtues of Police State .

The AI probes are cool too. I've resisted the urge to use or reverse engineer them .

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Blake
The high attack value and relatively low cost and the fact it can be used non-X does make it pretty overpowered.

The cost is already artificially increased from 3 to 4 min rows. It could of course be further increased.
For the record, I think I'll probably increase the cost of a conventional missile to 3 (crawler cost) instead of 2 rows.

What units does Ulrik destroy btw? If it are units that cost as much as or more than the cost of the missile, I agree they are overpowered. If he just destroys some formers or scout patrols, I don't see the problem. Then it works as intended - unless you take precautions the AI can actually do some harm in a war, as opposed to the standard game where losing a single unit in a war is already a rare occasion.

Oh I love all the randomized faction leader personalities. Brother Lal, true to his character, believes strongly in the virtues of Police State .

Woops. Apparently SMAX still takes its diplomatic text from Script.txt instead of xscript.txt. Download the attached file for the correct Federal Democracy quote! The SMAniaC download in my sig has also been updated.
(Or are you perhaps playing this scenario without the SMAniaC mod? - that would also explain a lot.)

[Maniac]

hmmm

[GeoModder]

Well, some feedback...

Busy playing a game in this mod as the DA's, and I'm glad I've choosen that faction! Personally, I don't see much of a benefit for the AI in his new probes. All a player needs to do is keep a probe in his base, and a hostile one will likely kill itself in an attempt to get at it. Even if it wins, the normal base defender can get it afterwards.

Stepped into the "Talents not visible in SE-screen" trap as well. Too bad it won't show there, really can be a nuisance for the unsuspecting.

The nuclear missiles, overpowered or not, are a nice addition in the early-to-middle game. And since choppers are hardly usable to empty the base(s) where an AI hoards them before striking, I had to use the same tactic to stop them from taking out my air units. Yes, I had a missile exchange for a while with Miry, and noted she consequently tried to missile bases where my choppers were stationed. Also, she stopped bombing a base the minute a tube-AAA defender was in place.

I like the tech-tree sofar. It's a bit hard to get used to (easy to feel lost) but it sure gives a multitude of ways of going somewhere. It also gives the AI more of an early advantage of getting a Project.
Some of the re-naming or placing isn't too good, but that's a matter of choice I suppose.

Regarding SE choices, the only really weird combo I could find is running Green and Anthropocentric at the same time. Respecting the ecosphere while simultaneously doing all what is needed to ensure survival? O yes, love the way you forced a player to have disadvantages while popbooming.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by GeoModder
Busy playing a game in this mod as the DA's, and I'm glad I've choosen that faction! Personally, I don't see much of a benefit for the AI in his new probes. All a player needs to do is keep a probe in his base, and a hostile one will likely kill itself in an attempt to get at it. Even if it wins, the normal base defender can get it afterwards.

The AI Probe was not really meant to make the AI better at offensive probing - that's a goal doomed for failure. I'm just hoping that once in a while when you sent out a probe to an AI faction, you will face an AI probe in their base and will have to return empty-handed or come back with reinforcements.
If you feel the need to keep probe defences in your bases, that's already a slight improvement though IMO.

The nuclear missiles, overpowered or not, are a nice addition in the early-to-middle game. And since choppers are hardly usable to empty the base(s) where an AI hoards them before striking, I had to use the same tactic to stop them from taking out my air units. Yes, I had a missile exchange for a while with Miry, and noted she consequently tried to missile bases where my choppers were stationed. Also, she stopped bombing a base the minute a tube-AAA defender was in place.

Great!

Regarding SE choices, the only really weird combo I could find is running Green and Anthropocentric at the same time. Respecting the ecosphere while simultaneously doing all what is needed to ensure survival?

Green and Anthropocentric are both "societies", so they can't be run at the same time. Perhaps you mean an anthropocentric society with as ruling elite empaths? I guess you could explain that as follows: having an empath elite means people with psi abilities have political control over the faction. These empaths don't necessarily use their psi talents though to reach harmony with Planet. In any case, in the new SE system I've more or less tried to keep the variation that existed in the old SE system. Eg there are two SE choices that give positive Planet, and it is possible to choose a SE choice that reduces the impact of the -3 Planet SE choice.

Personally I consider Planned-Plutocrat the most weird combination. Though I guess you could imagine Plutocrat ruling elite stands for Bureaucrat ruling elite under a planned economy.

***

A small update:

• alphax.txt: some weapon and armour costs fixed, and missile cost increased
• helpx.txt: some spelling errors fixed
• pirate.txt: they now want to achieve high EFFIC instead of SUPPORT. As the Pirates like ro run Planned, the -3 efficiency is really killing their energy production. Some limited testing didn't seem to show much difference though in the Pirate SE preference with or without the change. But I guess every little bit helps...

Full mod download in signature also updated.

[GeoModder]

Yes, I meant Empath and Anthropocentric.
Personal fulfillment by destroying the ecosphere somewhat...

And hey, the Troika was a fine example of elitarian people running a planned economy.

[Kirov]

Just played your mod in SP for a while...

By and large, I'm impressed. A lot of changes look and feel nice, esp. the tech tree. I like also the way you approached SE settings, esp. the choice "either economy or industry". OTOH, I must say I don't quite get the Politics piece of SE. I'm not exactly sure what you had in mind. Why, for example, I can have only -2 or +2 POLICE?

Anyway, these are just first notes. All in all, very good job and it's great we can test it in MP. More feedback later on, as the game develops.

PS, I've noticed that in your mod, MWs and IoDs sometimes do not attack a nearby unit. Likewise, IoDs and Sealurks can appear out of nowhere, even with no fungus around. Strange...

PS II. What about AI Probes? Does it use them?

PS.III I've just recalled - one of the techs allows formers to "construct mine field". What the heck is that?

[Maniac]

Thanks for your comments Kirov.

Originally posted by Kirov
OTOH, I must say I don't quite get the Politics piece of SE. I'm not exactly sure what you had in mind. Why, for example, I can have only -2 or +2 POLICE?

By the Ascetic Guild, factional boni and penalties, brood pits & cybernetic societies it's still possible to have the whole range of the POLICE SE factor.

But basically I just thought that a Police penalty fitted better with a democracy than with a free market. No nerve stapling, no military running over the streets in a democracy...

There are some nice consequences of this change though as far as I can see. In the standard game the combination PS-FM is not very good. A change from -5 Police to -3 Police is not very significant, especially since there are a couple tricks to circumvent pacifism drones anyway. In SMAniaC the PS-Private economy combo gives +2 Police, so it's more attractive IMO. Increased strategic variety possible in other words.

Re democracies themselves, they have +1 Talent besides -2 Police. So these effects cancel each other until you reach the second bureaucracy limit, and it isn't that much different than in the standard game (except for not having to build garrisons for all your bases).

But why not scrap both +1 Talent & -2 Police if it evens each other out? Besides the minor effect of not being able to nerve staple under a democracy, the +1 Talent can be useful to achieve golden age popbooming. Good for factions such as the Consciousness, Pirates and Morganites who are often screwed if they can't get the Human Genome Project in the standard game. Now they have another way to get that extra talent, which I think strengthens especially the Consciousness and Pirates who are considered weak in the standard game.

PS, I've noticed that in your mod, MWs and IoDs sometimes do not attack a nearby unit. Likewise, IoDs and Sealurks can appear out of nowhere, even with no fungus around. Strange...

Hmmm, I haven't noticed that myself. I'll try to watch out for it.

PS II. What about AI Probes? Does it use them?

If the AI faction strategy is set to build lots of probes (which I did in all my test games - hopefully Darsnan has done it too), it definitely does!

PS.III I've just recalled - one of the techs allows formers to "construct mine field". What the heck is that?

Oh just bunkers in the water. I just thought "Why not?" and made them possible to build. I guess they could be useful on archipelago maps with lots of small canals etc.

[Kirov]

Originally posted by Maniac

By the Ascetic Guild, factional boni and penalties, brood pits & cybernetic societies it's still possible to have the whole range of the POLICE SE factor.

It's still not quite the same. And there is still not a big difference between unitarian and federal versions of demo and PS.

But basically I just thought that a Police penalty fitted better with a democracy than with a free market. No nerve stapling, no military running over the streets in a democracy...

My advice - use 'realism' very carefully. I've seen several designers who wanted to create 'realistic' games and they all failed due to it. Hey, infantry units traverse several hundreds kilometres in one year, while cars are only twice as fast. Is is realistic? No. Does it hurt you? No. Remember, playability is far more important than realism.

There are some nice consequences of this change though as far as I can see. In the standard game the combination PS-FM is not very good. A change from -5 Police to -3 Police is not very significant, especially since there are a couple tricks to circumvent pacifism drones anyway. In SMAniaC the PS-Private economy combo gives +2 Police, so it's more attractive IMO. Increased strategic variety possible in other words.

The same as for politics - IMO your private economies are too similar to each other, narrowing the range of choices. And both of them look much more juicy than traditional FM, at least at the first glance. In our CO2 PBEM I've already beelined to Industrial Base to get Protectionism. I'm not saying that's bad, for now I'm just noting down the differences. But Planned really doesn't look convincing at all right now.

Re democracies themselves, they have +1 Talent besides -2 Police. So these effects cancel each other until you reach the second bureaucracy limit, and it isn't that much different than in the standard game (except for not having to build garrisons for all your bases).

But why not scrap both +1 Talent & -2 Police if it evens each other out? Besides the minor effect of not being able to nerve staple under a democracy, the +1 Talent can be useful to achieve golden age popbooming. Good for factions such as the Consciousness, Pirates and Morganites who are often screwed if they can't get the Human Genome Project in the standard game. Now they have another way to get that extra talent, which I think strengthens especially the Consciousness and Pirates who are considered weak in the standard game.

Good point, I really like the fact you included the Talent factor in your SE. All in all, you SE look balanced and allowing nice combos. I have a slight impression that warmongers are in a bit worse situation than in vanilla SMAX, but it is yet to be confirmed. What I mean is right now is much easier to get +2 ECON, while good military choices (both PS) cover serious research hit. Likewise, you overlooked to improve the worst choice in ol' SMAX - Power, ie. Junta. I think that is very important, as many people agree Power is underpowered.

Oh just bunkers in the water. I just thought "Why not?" and made them possible to build. I guess they could be useful on archipelago maps with lots of small canals etc.

Now I see. I was surprised because after researching this tech nothing changed in terraform options. Of course those were land formers. I think that regardless of bunkers' usefulness, it's good you included them. Never too many options, I say.

One more thing I've noticed. In SManiac, Spartan Police bonus really does make the difference. In our CO2 I benefit from +1 Talent while still can pacify the next drone. If it was standard I 'd consider even ICSing. This change is also good, as Spartans are a bit worse than other factions.

[Maniac]

My advice - use 'realism' very carefully. I've seen several designers who wanted to create 'realistic' games and they all failed due to it. Hey, infantry units traverse several hundreds kilometres in one year, while cars are only twice as fast. Is is realistic? No. Does it hurt you? No. Remember, playability is far more important than realism.

Yes, but if a game can be made more realistic while that doesn't make playability suffer, why not do so? In fact if used wisely, realism will make the game more immersive, fun and thus more playable. Realism and playability don't have to be opposites. To give an example, in my opinion in Europa Universalis II you can feel like a Portuguese explorer scouting the coasts of Africa, or in Victoria like a Russian general invading British India much better than you could in similar civ scenarios. One of the main reasons IMO is that the time engine and unit movement in the Paradox games makes much more sense than those silly one square a year unit movement in civ games that you just quoted. Likewise in the standard game -5 Police for free market really does bother me and makes the game less fun for me, as there are plenty of police states and authoritarian regimes in the real world that have what SMAC would call a 'free market'. Since I'm a political scientist I guess this kind of stuff bothers me more than the average person. But fact is at least I personally want my games to feel realistic as much as reasonably possible. Eg even I could I doubt I would like playing an unmodded Civ4 a lot because it all feels like a bunch of unrealistic crap. It just doesn't draw me in.

It's still not quite the same. [re POLICE]

I don't really understand what's your critique. Is it the lack of a 0 Police SE choice, the lack of a -5 Police option, or something else?

And there is still not a big difference between unitarian and federal versions of demo and PS.

Currently it's

2) STATE STRUCTURE
Unitary: +2 PROBE, +1 SUPPORT
<->
Federal: +2 EFFIC

(quoted from modSE.txt in the documentation folder of SMAniaC)

What would you add or change?

The same as for politics - IMO your private economies are too similar to each other, narrowing the range of choices.

Yup I agree. What would you add or change here? Personally I can't really find something good.
(If only Civ4 would work on my laptop - I have already plenty of ideas how SMAniaC could be improved with the extra moddability.)

And both of them look much more juicy than traditional FM, at least at the first glance. In our CO2 PBEM I've already beelined to Industrial Base to get Protectionism. I'm not saying that's bad, for now I'm just noting down the differences. But Planned really doesn't look convincing at all right now.

Currently Private/Protectionist economies give:
Private / Protectionist: +2 ECONOMY, -1 TALENT, -1 INDUSTRY, -1 SUPPORT
In the standard game:
+2 ECONOMY, -5 POLICE, -3 PLANET

The -5 Police is more or less replaced by the -1 Talent. The difference is that now you can explore out of your own borders without pacifism drones, but that's done intentionally so that the AI doesn't ruin itself by running Private-owned economies.

-3 Planet has been removed as well. There's the realism reason that I don't really see why free market economies would per definition be worse for the environment than planned economies. The choice how to behave towards Planet is now moved to the Society line with the strong opposition between Anthropocentric and Green societies. Personally I kinda like this choice you have to make, and also that you can combine the choice both with a planned or private-owned economy. However I would agree it leaves the economy choice less interesting, and potentially FM somewhat overpowered. I just can't think of something else to fill the gap within the limited SMAC framework. Ideas are welcome!

Good point, I really like the fact you included the Talent factor in your SE. All in all, you SE look balanced and allowing nice combos. I have a slight impression that warmongers are in a bit worse situation than in vanilla SMAX, but it is yet to be confirmed.

It was my intention to make it easier for early warmongering! (But harder once air power arrives on the scene.) So I hope your impression turns out wrong. Go kick some but with those Spartans!

Re the SE choices:

What I mean is right now is much easier to get +2 ECON,

But because there's no more -5 Police, warmongers can get +2 ECON as easily as builders!

while good military choices (both PS) cover serious research hit.

Personally I'm actually worried Police State is way too powerful compared to Democracy. So I'm glad someone disagrees with me. In any case, I'm curious what SE choices everyone is going to make.

Likewise, you overlooked to improve the worst choice in ol' SMAX - Power, ie. Junta. I think that is very important, as many people agree Power is underpowered.

The Industry penalty has been halved from -2 to -1. And it's available earlier in the game, at level 4 weapons, so warmongers can have a decent army early in the game I hope.

One more thing I've noticed. In SManiac, Spartan Police bonus really does make the difference. In our CO2 I benefit from +1 Talent while still can pacify the next drone. If it was standard I 'd consider even ICSing. This change is also good, as Spartans are a bit worse than other factions.

Yup the Spartans are my favourite faction. I have to admit with every change I made the question "How does this affect the Spartans?" was in my mind. I hope they can in multiplayer compete on equal footing now with the usual suspects such as Uni, PK, Morgan, Drones... In any case, the AI plays the Spartans really well now.

[Kataphraktoi]

The AI Probe was not really meant to make the AI better at offensive probing - that's a goal doomed for failure. I'm just hoping that once in a while when you sent out a probe to an AI faction, you will face an AI probe in their base and will have to return empty-handed or come back with reinforcements.
If you feel the need to keep probe defences in your bases, that's already a slight improvement though IMO.

'slight' improvement

that I don't really see why free market economies would per definition be worse for the environment than planned economies

unfortunatly smac cant capture the scope of things,that as time passes a FM will allow business leaders to make descisions that impact-pollution for instance and unstoped devolopment. on that note,a FM should have +growth also, although the complexity id like to see isnt there to support it.

Personally I'm actually worried Police State is way too powerful compared to Democracy. So I'm glad someone disagrees with me. In any case, I'm curious what SE choices everyone is going to make.

actually havnt played for a few weeks(smaniac),ill have to fire it up when i have a spare minute.there are some really strong SE iirc that i mostly used.ill dl the latest update today again