The Second Ship: Two Sets Based on the novel Earth

[#endgame]

Be careful with the Raiders: if you build the PTS, will the base grow to size 3 even with a 2 person habcomplex restriction? Also, put down a rec commons and you don't get drone problems until after habs.

[MysticWind]

Got it.

Are any of the factions too much like the original ones? Like Raiders and Sparta, or Librarians and Peacekeepers?

[#endgame]

Library of planet seems a bit powerful. The main thing that offsets the UoP having +2 research is that it's a lot easier to pinch stuff from them. Also, they have plan nets, which is probes from game start and they don't have info nets, which is odd, because that's a tech that's a prereq for plan nets. Also, they'll get probe rollover everywhere due to that +2 probe. Try -INDUSTRY or --INDUSTRY, since they're more interested in knowledge. as an alternative to that, how about a SE aversion? They're currently very much like a buffed UoP at the moment.

[MysticWind]

Yeah, I haven't gotten the aversions and agendas for all of them down yet, and I'm going to have to play around with other attributes... immunity and impunity and such.

For now, I'm trying to get the numbers down.

Again, are the Librarians too much like University or the Peacekeepers? Are the Raiders too much like Pirates or Sparta?

[MysticWind]

...Chaos Theory?

[#endgame]

Well, there's already 2 +2 research factions: cycon and uop.

You need to make radically different negatives, to make them seem more than merely a rehash. The SE negatives of ECON, EFFIC aren't that good for an option, since they directly negate the benefit.

RESEARCH is powerful, and so is GROWTH. Note how -GROWTH seriously affects ability to boom: need planned/dem/creche and goldenage, which is hard to get going.

Can you give a faction a secret project? Because making one player start with the voice of planet will mean insane worms right from the start. Not related, but interesting...

As the librarians, I'd use that +2 PROBE and just build probe defenders morgan style, and go for market/wealth, meaning that the -MORALE isn't so useful. (If i'm wrong about how the SE MORALE affects probes, someone let me know).

Careful about the Technologists: the -1 planet isn't that much of an issue to me, and the ++RESEARCH mould is getting kind of full.

[MysticWind]

About Technologists: wilco. Storywise, I really needed them to be super-Researchers, but I guess I can compensate by giving them more starting techs. I was thinking about making them a planned economy. Perhaps their Research modifier can be boosted artificially.

Or, could I give them +1 Research but also +1 Economy with +1 Industry? Or will that be wiped out by planned economy?

Wealth? Well, I was going to have the Librarians focus on Knowledge, but I know for sure their aversion is probably going to be power values. I’m definitely lowering their research to –1.

And from their story profiles I’ve written so far, are the Raiders and Librarians anything like… oh, I’ve asked this already.

[#endgame]

Note that the uni is ++ RESEARCH and free net nodes, and that more starting techs will slow them down on the way to IA. +RESEARCH +ECON +INDUSTRY would be really good, you'd have to be careful about balancing that. Morgan's +ECON is so good because you can get to +1 energy/square without running market. I envisage the technologists running planned/wealth for good industry and +1 energy/square, with the possibility for booming all the while.

Maybe cut the +RESEARCH from the raiders and replace with free tech: Applied Physics?

[MysticWind]

I'm good with that Raiders suggestion. They don't need explicitly to have pluses in Research, since they make it up with their good tech stealing.

I still need to rethink the Technologists. They're supposed to be a consumer-oriented (econ is good, but not commerce), tech-heavy faction that would be comfortable with Planned, since the whole society is supposed to be planned anyway.

Any faction stories too much like original? Please respond.

[Chaos Theory]

Faction strengths/weaknesses as I see them:

University: very strong research, weak probe defense, slightly weak vertical growth
Hive: very weak research and energy, constrained vertical growth, very strong horizontal growth, strong infrastructure, large military
Morgan: very strong energy, strong research, very weak vertical growth, weak early unit production
Spartans: very strong military, strong horizontal growth, very weak infrastructure
Peacekeepers: very strong horizontal growth, strong vertical growth
Believers: weak research, strong early unit production, strong probes, very strong military offense, large military
Gaians: slightly weak energy and research, strong horizontal growth, strong military

CyCon: very strong research, strong energy, weak vertical growth
Pirates: strong vertical growth, weak horizontal growth, weak infrastructure, strong military, very weak early unit production, slightly strong research and energy
Cult: very weak research and energy, very weak infrastructure, strong military, slightly strong horizontal growth
Drones: weak research, slightly strong horizontal growth, very strong infrastructure, large military
Angels: strong probes, slightly strong research

Library of Planet: strong research, strong probes, very strong horizontal growth, strong vertical growth
Nanomachine Technologists: strong research, strong infrastructure, strong horizontal growth
Darwin Raiders: slightly strong research, slightly strong probes, strong military, strong early unit production, weak vertical growth

Before I could say if the Library of Planet or Nanomachine Technologists are too much like existing factions, they need some penalties.

[MysticWind]

Gotcha. I'm working on that. What do you feel about the factions I have in the first post?

Urgent question: is it possible to have a planet buster as a starting unit. If it¡¦s possible, should I give it away? Would it be too powerful?

[Chaos Theory]

I think a PB would be fun as a starting unit. It would suck to be wiped out early by it, so such a faction should generally not start next to another, but once the PB is spent, it's gone, leaving an overall below-average faction at war with everyone, ideally.

Planetary Settlers: very strong military (shouldn't they have an SE aversion, though?) Something of a variation on the Spartans, with more emphasis on native life between the +planet and -probe. With both FM and Wealth available, -1 economy means little. If FM is forbidden, then they look more like Gaian-Spartans.
FC Magistrates: strong early military, slightly strong research, slightly strong energy. You said they needed to be updated, but that hasn't happened yet.
Elders of Chiron: strong research, slightly strong military, weak vertical growth. Not really much different from the Uni, despite having a positive probe rating rather than a negative one. I suppose they could entirely replace the Uni, though, as many people think free net nodes are too powerful.
Parish of Planet (assuming they get free creches on top of everything): very strong vertical growth, weak horizontal growth, strong research, strong energy
Sons of Centauri-Ra: strong research, strong energy, slightly weak vertical growth, strong military
AXIS (ignoring the SotHB restriction): strong military, large military, very strong early military, strong horizontal growth, weak psi
Psions for Purity: very strong military, very weak infrastructure, strong horizontal growth
Global Energy Exchange: very strong research, very strong energy. No significant disadvantages, on a faction that badly needs one.
New Athenians (with normal-cost colony pods): ridiculously strong horizontal growth, strong infrastructure, very strong vertical growth. NO PENALTIES AT ALL! BROKEN!

[MysticWind]

1. What’s Vertical growth?

2. I’m cutting the Technologists’ RESEARCH benefits entirely and giving them research points each turn. What would be a good number?

3. What’s wrong with giving the Raiders just +RESEARCH?

4. Again, I’m going to cut the Librarians’ Research to +1 instead of +2. I think I’ll increase the morale penalty to –1, but since they’re not meant to be Gaian like and hippies I’m going to look through the list of penalties before doing that.

5. I think I'm going to slap some sort of combat-related penalty on the New Athenians. Believe me, I'll teach those too rich, too fecund, too produtive art lovers a lesson!

Once again, thanks Endgame and Chaos Theory for all of the helpful advice. Sorry for pestering you guys for answers.

[Chaos Theory]

Originally posted by MysticWind
1. What’s Vertical growth?

The ability to make large bases. This plays into research and energy, too. Any faction with extra talents or +growth tends to be good at vertical growth. Factions with low hab limits or that have a hard time pop booming are bad at vertical growth.

2. I’m cutting the Technologists’ RESEARCH benefits entirely and giving them research points each turn. What would be a good number?

I think you can only give research points per base, per turn. I'm not very experienced with the mod, but of course it would have more impact early than late.

3. What’s wrong with giving the Raiders just +RESEARCH?

Did I say there was something wrong with it? Between +research, +probe, and stealing tech upon capturing bases, the Raiders will have something of a tech edge on most factions. The problem is an absence of significant disadvantages.

4. Again, I’m going to cut the Librarians’ Research to +1 instead of +2. I think I’ll increase the morale penalty to –1, but since they’re not meant to be Gaian like and hippies I’m going to look through the list of penalties before doing that.

Think about what they should be bad at. For example, what do librarians think about the free market? Librarians in capitalist societies don't do very well, particularly in 2100 with all books computerized.

5. I think I'm going to slap some sort of combat-related penalty on the New Athenians. Believe me, I'll teach those too rich, too fecund, too produtive art lovers a lesson!

A simple combat penalty won't do it, as in that case playing them is like flipping a biased coin: find an intelligent opponent early and die; don't, and out-tech/out-produce any threat, given your early edge. If they're so elitist, maybe they need extra drones, police penalties, penalty wealth, probe penalties, efficiency penalties, hurry penalties, or other appropriate drawbacks.

Once again, thanks Endgame and Chaos Theory for all of the helpful advice. Sorry for pestering you guys for answers.

[#endgame]

If you want to do something really off the wall, bar a faction from an entire line of SE options. I don't think I've seen it done before.