Questions from fresh blood

[Autoclave]

Is this forum still alive? I have recently discovered SMAX after 750 hours of Civ 5 and this game is amazing and it aged very well while keeping a lot of original stuff that I never experienced in Civ 5. I got a decent grip on most of the games tactics except for forcing myself to ICS, which i really dislike.

I got a few questions related to SMAX:

Naval Warfare

Is there any deep tactics behind naval warfare in terms of attack vs defense? On the ground there a lot of available modifiers which allow defense to stand a chance against weapons of comparative tech levels: ECM, Sensor, rough terrain, bunkers.

What does naval defense offer in this regard? Most of the times, enemy ships are out of line of sight and assuming similar tech levels their best weapon will be stronger than my best armor (and vice versa) which will always lead to who attacks first = wins.

PSI Weapons and Armor
When are these weapons appropriate to use instead of regular ones? I guess it probably depends on what regular weapons and armors you have compared to your enemy. Psi Armor on ground forces will enforce a 3:2 attack:defense ratio, will air and ground will enforce 1:1. It depends on whether you got the psi defense secret project and of course on your troops having max morale. However, you cannot grab Trance/Empath if you get Psi Armor/Weapon, which your enemy can take advantage of by putting it on a regular weapon.

Related to text above, is psi armor good for ships? You get a 1:1 attack defense ratio, assuming neither of you have any psi combat secret projects, you are both elites and your enemy having empath, you get a 2:1 defense ratio, less in favor but you are still better than if you had to fight a 30 attack ship with your 12 defense.

What about dissociative wave? What about sopporific pods (enemy morale penalty)? Can these help on defense? If I get a psi weapon with dissociative wave (disables enemy trance) and a sopporific pods will I get better results than a standard 30 string disruptor vs 12 armor scenario?

People would probably ask why not go natives if you want to engage in psi compbat, but I noticed that better reactors give you more health and thus in the long term you regular troops should be better in psi combat than natives.

Thanks for any answers

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

There's been non-trivial activity this year; there are a lot of SMACers checking by, and the more you post, the more they will.

My interests are far more in modding, but you won't have any trouble getting some answers to your questions from others soon.

[Autoclave]

There's been non-trivial activity this year; there are a lot of SMACers checking by, and the more you post, the more they will.

My interests are far more in modding, but you won't have any trouble getting some answers to your questions from others soon.

Speaking of modding, I decided to move drop pods from MMI to NanoMini (the hovertank tech), because it felt that it was way too much goodies in one tech. Besides, all the conquering becomes a breeze after MMI with Chop'n'Drop. You don't even have much reason to rush to hovertanks because of that.

Personally i have this psychological block where I cannot enjoy modded games, for some weird reason and I don't understand why I feel like i am trying to play a game i myself just invented. But SMAX is so easily modable that it would be a sin not to do it.

So I did actually change a few things besides drop pods:
I nerfed aliens my removing their free recycling tanks and took away one of the techs.
Cult has lost its starting mindworm, and free brood pit, but got a free biology lab (which comes out much sooner), i don't think it's overpowered when we have crazy factions like cybernitc with +2 research +2efficiency (which is crazy I really like pumping my energy into 80-90% labs with aki zeta and getting to ridiculous situations when your best armor is higher than enemy best weapon..)
Gave the probe teams ability to grab the amphibous pods.
Oh.. and I renamed the morale levels, i couldn't remember them before, so i named them like in X-Com Corporal, Sergeant, Lieutenant, Captain, Major, Colonel

Oh and why air transports are so damn short ranged? fission needlejet transport 8 tiles in 2 turns? this is crap..

Another random questios, do probe team action price modifiers affect the total price of global energy market cornering? Can a faction by going probe +2 rating make it more expensive for you to corner the market?

[551262]

The probe team price market is something I'd like to know too, you'd have to ask a veteran Marketeer or make a trial run.

The only time I put Psi Armor on anything is in SMAC-X, but I don't play SMAC-X much compared to the regular SMAC. The unit in question is a Enhanced Probe Team (Algorithmic Enhancement) and Psi Defense. Assuming they're Elite, the enemy *has* to attack with Psi. It works out pretty well when you have the Neural Amplifier.

Naval warfare is kind of a no-no in this game. There's a small window for which it is pragmatic, and only when you're directly shooting for it. The reason is because of needlejets.

Let's consider a good entry timeframe for naval combat: chaos guns, fusion reactors, silksteel armor, neural grafting, advanced military algorithms. Oh yeah, and the Maritime Control Center, although that is only worthwhile in limited cases*. This lends you to easy 8-4-6*2 Deep Radar AAA cruisers. They're deadly. But they can be knocked out of the water by three specific threats: 1) battery guns, 2) cheap 8-1-4*2 foils, 3) someone with better attack weaponry like fusion lasers (I skip them, I wait for Plasma Shard, since you keep PS for a *LONG* time) who can toss a cheap needlejet or two your way. I think a cruiser may be able to absorb a fission conventional missile but not so sure about a fusion conventional missile.

Especially for factions with poor Industry rating, those said cruisers are expensive. Very expensive, and to be effective, you have to have a nice-size fleet of them, and a coastal powerhouse (40+ minerals) to crank them out**. By the time you crank up a fleet of 6-8 cruisers to constitute a convoy, someone else has a huge crop of needlejets or choppers*** to respond to your threat. To counter the aircraft presence, I build SAM AAA designated defense foils, like 5-4-4*2 SAM AAA units. (Play with the unit creator to find out what is the best gun you can put on without increasing the cost of the unit much. I find that gatling guns work well with silksteel armour, yet with probability armor, I can upgrade that to missile. You don't need a hotshot gun on a SAM AAA foil since nobody puts armor on air units, because armored needlejets and choppers are shockingly expensive and isn't really needed anyways.)

Shore battery units are not something I've seen mentioned in many SMAC guides. Basically, a shore-based battery unit can attack a naval unit up to two squares away, and is unique because when the battery unit is attacking the naval unit, the naval unit is forced to defend with its armor, instead of responding with its guns. This means that you can discourage shore bombardments and also sink unarmored naval units rather easily. I find that four or five batteries can handle the chore relatively well and infantry battery units are cheap. You'll need four to six battery "rounds" to sink an unarmored vessel but sometimes three will work.

Then you get to the attack purpose. Naval cruisers make good guardians and have good presence. Elite Spartan cruisers paired with the Maritime Control Center means they have nine movement points. But to qualify as a *real* convoy you need 6-8 cruisers, about the same number of SAM AAA foils (to stack underneath the cruisers), a fusion transport loaded with needlejets (gotta wait for Carrier Deck ability), another transport stuffed with marine troopers and ANOTHER transport with miscellaneous units like AAA ECM garrisons and probe teams so you can protect yourself against a strong counterattack. By the time you add up the cost of meddling with all these units you could have focused this attention, mineral cost, turns and what not on more productive things, like building a stiff defense force and transcending.

To simply take over the ridiculous number of ill-placed naval bases the AI plants, just use a transport packed with marines and four or five AAA SAM foils. Elite marines beat the stuffing out of naval bases and if you pack some AAA ECM garrisons, can threaten coastal bases with dire harm. No slick expensive attack cruisers needed.

I've tried a couple of Huge water maps to really focus on naval power. I've documented my efforts in this post and the previous page. (Pic heavy, so give it some time to load.) I can say that projecting a lot of naval power is expensive, but if you're the only one doing it, it's one advantage you have over the others, especially if it lets you send off probe-equipped cruisers to irate your foes; this really can become a severe hassle for the enemy if you have a carrier deck transport stuffed with needlejets to bomb his special bonus squares and cause other annoyances.

But as for everybody else, the veterans that check in here once in awhile, they don't bother much with naval power. It's very expensive and its benefits are rather small. I will say though, if you looked at that thread, I really did learn the value of those little four or five-square outposts just outside my mainland, because you can pack two or three boreholes on them and make them good naval defense bastions.

As for air transports, it's something I've wondered about too, which is kind of annoying because you can only carry a few units and the range is absolutely terrible. Maybe the game would be imbalanced if they were available with "normal" range? All I know is that I've heard that you can't drop off the units inside the air transport unless it's inside a base...kind of defeats the purpose...I wouldn't know about an airbase though. (Just so you know, airbases do not lend a +100% Aerospace Complex bonus to defending units against attacking air units.)


* The Maritime Control Center is only really useful on Huge water maps, or if you intend to deny this to the Pirates. Every other size map can make do without it.

** Domai would love them though, according to my research, Domai with Fundamentalist + Planned + Power + Eudamonia = +5 Industry, +6 Growth, +2 Econ, +4 Support and something else. You'll need the Cloning Vats SP to get rid of Power's -2 Industry, and the Living Refinery for +2 Support. Things become shockingly cheap. Add the +4 Support and big bases, and you can safely pass on Clean Reactors and push out a late-game army that would make Yang, Santiago and Miriam green with envy, all simultaneously, especially with the +4 Support, as if you have size 14 or 16 production powerhouses, you can support four garrison units plus ten units for the outside world for FREE. Multiply that by the number of powerhouse bases and you can easily support 100 units for nothing. Personally though, I found Domai's research inhibition to be quite crippling, as bad as Miriam, so you'll want a tech leader to stay in top ranking to pilfer his tech.

*** I deliberately skip choppers unless the A.I. brings them out. I think they're overpowered and make the game boring. By the time these start coming out in force, it's not hard to push out 1-4-1*2 AAA ECM garrisons, and coupled with an Aerospace Complex and a Sensor, you'll shut down that gameplan quick. As I've said before I love SAM rovers, like 13-1-1*2 SAM units. If they're Elite, they can knock out THREE needlejets at a nominal cost to you. I don't bother with hovertanks. I also don't build drop units unless the AI does, and even then I keep them in reserve. Unless there's a huge spattering of Unity pods left all over place, in which case I'll build some 1-1-1*2 Trance Drop units to go exploring.

[Autoclave]

Thanks for all the suggestions. It looks like naval warfare is all about overwhelming your opponent. I wish they allowed us to build water sensors.

[Kahryl]

2) cheap 8-1-4*2 foils

In my game, at least, cruisers will disengage much like a rover if they're losing vs. a foil attack, since cruisers have higher movement speed than foils.

This is only the case if the cruiser is not already so damaged (before the attack) that its movement is degraded to at or below the foil's.

..but yeah, cheap planes with crazy range are what really stop navel combat from getting interesting. Hell, cheap planes with crazy range ruin a lot of things. This is why I halved the range of planes, increased their mineral costs, and buffed AAA to 2.5x instead of 2x. And moved choppers WAY up the tech tree.

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

I wish they allowed us to build water sensors.

Seaformers on auto will build sensors - but they don't work.

[Autoclave]

Oh, and what's the deal with optical computers? Why do we have a tech that brings nothing to the table?

[PvtHudson]

Oh, and what's the deal with optical computers? Why do we have a tech that brings nothing to the table?

Indeed, Optical Computers aren't terribly useful. That's why some move The Virtual World to them. It reduces early-game Secret Projects crowding, and can create some diversion from Industrial Automation beeline, at least in singleplayer. Also, AI Zak, who benefits from VW most, is loving Optical Computers path. While you play more, you will learn to create similar tweaks here and there to entertain yourself. SMAC is rather modding-friendly game.
As for naval combat, you are right, it's first-sighted - first-struck - won, just as in a real life. There is no entrenched frontline in the sea. The Maritime Control Center helps to strike first. And the only satisfactory defense against enemy air power is carrier-born interceptors. That's why some players move Carrier Deck lower in the tech tree, either to Doctrine: Initiative or new tech near Doc: Init. And nearly the only thing you can do about protecting ships from enemy ballistic missiles is staying out of range, trying to scout and hit the missiles with needlejet.
Warning: I play single only, no multiplayer. And even in SP I'm not an expert by any measures, winning roughly one of every 5 transcend games. So take my babbling with a grain of salt.
PS: Sorry for my English.

[PvtHudson]

What about dissociative wave? What about sopporific pods (enemy morale penalty)? Can these help on defense? ...
People would probably ask why not go natives if you want to engage in psi compbat, but I noticed that better reactors give you more health and thus in the long term you regular troops should be better in psi combat than natives.

AFAIK, Dissociative Wave works on defense, while Soporific Gas Pods do not. And I believe, in a PSI combat reactors are ignored despite affecting pre-battle odds dialog, this helps natives to remain a threat a little longer.

[551262]

Cruisers will disengage from foils, depending on circumstances (disengage rules). I once had an enemy cruiser disengage twice in the same turn. Still didn't matter because as before, foils are cheaper, so you can have more of them. One cruiser or two foils? Well, if the cruiser attacks, you're gone anyways, but at least I can counter attack the next turn.

Naval conflicts tend to favor numbers. Also those endless sea bases built in deep water (...stupid...) can be beneficial for needlejet stopping points or for the free naval yards if you have the Maritime Control Center.

But as I have said in the Terraforming Questions thread, having outcrops next to your island can be very useful. If they're within needlejet range, you can have a nice patrol network of needlejets. Here's how it works: While a needlejet is active, press the P key, then move the curser to the area you'd like to patrol. Then look at how many movement points the needlejet has: if it's fission, it's 10; if it's fusion, it's 12; if it's quantum chamber, it's 14; if it's singularity engine, it's 16; if it has fuel nanocells, add two more; if you have the Cloudbase Academy (The Nuke Me Project) SP, add two on top of that, then add one more if it's an elite unit. So what you do is look at your cursor and you'll see a "Range: 8" or something like that, and just match the Range figure to your movement points. This means that the needlejet will go out to the specified point and return on the same turn, and then fly out again the next turn without having to wait for fuel and turn-around time because it ended the turn inside a base. You'll want to avoid patrolling a range less than your needlejet's range because then it'll go back to base and head back out to patrol without landing, wasting time and two turns. Patrol chokepoints where the enemy has to pass through, although submarines won't work with this technique.

That's how you use needlejets for patrolling your coastal regions for "drop-offs" and cruiser transports stuffed with marines, which are a serious threat to coastal bases. Remember to leave a spare needlejet or two back at the base that the patrolling needlejet starts off from in case your enemy wants to quarrel a little.

I haven't played much with gravships but they're awesome when you have fuel nano cells, singularity engines and the Cloudbase Academy. I think you get like 21 moves for an elite gravship, plus they can "park" on squares, although that makes them vulnerable to SAM foils. And I like SAM foils because it means I don't have to bring along game-crashing interceptors or strike on areas where needlejets from home can't be brought along. A 5-6-4*2 AAA SAM foil is only like 70 minerals or something like that (with -1 Industry). Bring a long a bunch so when conventional missiles and suicide choppers (yawn) get tossed around you'll be protected.

EDIT:Also make sure to make all of them Designated Defenders so you won't loose your precious 13-6-6*2 AAA Clean cruisers.

I found cruisers to be real good for bringing the fight to the enemy, but you really do need a lot of them and you'll again, want those defense foils so that if they take a good beating to about 80% damage, they'll still be protected. This reminds me when I was playing as the Pirates (again, shown in that thread) and Marr packed a ton of R-Laser needlejets in his forward deep-water useless bases to try and strike me but I was just outside of his range (like, one move away). Then one time he moved them to one of my borehole equipped outpost bases, but I didn't have any SAM rovers on hand and my interceptors were still being built (and I only had like three of them, he had 14). Not that the SAM rovers would have done much good because the needlejets were not quite positioned for taking two of them down with one rover and hopping back inside a base where a 1-4-1*2 AAA ECM garrison would have protected them, or that the interceptors of mine were outside of their range...But anyways I notice the situation and quickly struck hard with 6-8 13-4-6*2 AAA cruisers and took out his frontier launching bases. One of the enemy needlejets attacked, won against my unit but crashed, the remainder tried to go back to home but all crashed on the way back. I got a good laugh out of watching 13 6r-1-10 noodles crash into the ocean.

EDIT 2: The last couple of games of mine I really tried to get some real naval conflict going. The things I learned were useful (borehole outposts) but the reality is that land based attacks do so much more damage and by the time decent cruisers start coming around (chaos guns, fusion reactors to make them cheaper, AAA for protection against cheap needlejets, silksteel armor) there's just better ways to take the fight to the enemy. And how: Four transports, one packed with 8 attack infantry units (won't need armor), one packed with 8 SAM rovers, one packed with probe teams (assuming you're up against The Enemy that is called Yang), and one with four batteries and four AAA ECM garrison designated defenders to protect against counter attacks and stack on top of your attacking units.

If you look at the AI, assuming infiltration, which you should always have, most of his bases are rather illy defended, notably like Yang who builds hoards of cheap 1-3-1 garrisons. Those are easily put out with a probe team to take out the perimeter defense and a nice offensive of chaos rovers.

You'll need a naval force on larger maps with lots of water whether you like it or not, unless you strike at his inland empire and leave the enemy with nothing but worthless oceanic bases and then just transcend or elect yourself planetary governer.

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

Speaking of modding

I realize now I should have said art modding in my first reply. I know somewhat about custom factions, but I'm mostly useless on the technical/.txt side.

However - buncha guys here http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?board=13.0 who can answer questions...