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  • #91
    Originally posted by kyrub View Post
    I find it odd that people seem to care less about the AI enhancement. Everybody is gung ho about new modding variants and "tons of" new content, usually. When it comes to: "Does the game represent bigger challenge for me?", silence.

    I have had even negative reactions to Master of Magic patch, that clearly raises the game level of AI, some people dislike the extra challenge and they are reluctant to turn down the game difficulty level ("come on, I have always beaten it on impossible"). We laugh at bad AIs, but in fact, we need them to feel like the big winners at the end.
    Really strange.
    I tend to see the opposite in strategy forums, from Total War to Warband everyone complains that A.I. is weak. The fixes for all these games seem to make A.I. do less stupid things but never play clever or sensibly. Then again I have never played that Master of Magic game you mentioned so I would be curious to try it. I've always assumed it was impossible to make really good A.I. with current technology but I have never really understood how it actually works.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by MegaTurtleRex View Post
      I tend to see the opposite in strategy forums, from Total War to Warband everyone complains that A.I. is weak. The fixes for all these games seem to make A.I. do less stupid things but never play clever or sensibly. Then again I have never played that Master of Magic game you mentioned so I would be curious to try it. I've always assumed it was impossible to make really good A.I. with current technology but I have never really understood how it actually works.
      No, I am unable to make "really good AI", to be honest. "Less stupid things" is what I do, as good AI decisions as possible on the little space I find. MoM is a great game, one of the best in TB genre, but very old. The AI used to be his mega weakness, now it's far better, almost unplayable on the highest difficulty.

      If you search a very good AI in turn based game, I have been told several times that Mechanized Assault Exploration (M.A.X.) can really turn you inside out. C-evo is a civ-like game, which has a very good AI (but otherwise it's conceptually a bit dry) - an AI professor told me this.

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      • #93
        SMAC_444 version l

        New version. a test build.

        http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php...=view;down=122



        This is a test build of the patch. Be prepared to see some unwanted AI actions, improving requires a lot of patience and a good perception of AI activity throughout the game (any thorough feedback is appreciated, please react in the appropriate thread in the modding forum).

        I have applied a few AI Social engineering choices, mainly the support / police mismatch in the original game.
        Also the morale setting is now less valued by the AI.

        I included a few important and obvious corrections to previous patch, we should see less probes again, less sea transports etc.



        a uterran4 (terraforming basic)
        b tech_beelines
        c AI hurrying
        d close base and fungus love from 70
        e unit_abilities_8
        f more ships
        g formers chance
        h crawlers
        i recycle tanks priority
        j speeders inclination

        -------------------------
        k1 stockpile energy bug
        k2 swap base bug
        k3 children creche bug
        k4 AI hurrybug 3
        k5 AI seaformers
        k6 colony pods
        k7 reversal of near AI cities

        ----------------------------------------
        l8 less probes by
        l9 if police =< -4 less ships
        l10 less naval tranports
        l11 AI socio version 3

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        • #94
          I've not played multiplayer, but I beat Transcend without cheese (only a few crawlers/no clear AI exploits/etc) basically every game, and am glad you're working on improving the AI. I have only played a few games with the previous patch (SMAX only, it's got more stuff and everything from SMAC is there anyway, plus I had issues getting it SMAC to run with the patch), and have noticed a bit more challenge, but the AI still can't stand up after the earlygame despite building fairly impressive empires. Here are few key areas which really bring them down along with some ideas about improving them.

          Combat

          1. Not attacking with hurry
          I find the AI uses units extremely inefficiently in many situations, mostly because they are too cautious to attack and never (in my experience) attack with the hurry penalty. This means that, for example, you can move your army to two squares from an AI base defended by a few Impact infantry without armor and a plasma defender, wait a turn, then move in (accepting a -33% hurry on non-elite infantry) and kill far more than they would've lost by moving out to attack you with their weapons.

          I'm not sure whether you've looked into the code which controls the decision to attack or not, but something like: If target_unit_cost > own_unit_cost and probability_of_winning_battle > 50% then Attack despite hurry could help greatly. A more advanced version which takes into account the stacking of the targeted unit, perhaps just a multiplier for the number of units stacked there?

          2. Tendency to stack very badly, especially at chokepoints
          Harder to fix, but this and the damage to all in stack mechanics has allowed me to defend much larger attack forces with only a few rovers. When there are foe units within range, the AI should not have huge stacks of 6-8 units. If possible, perhaps adding in a check for nearby enemy units, and encouraging units to move to spaces with 2 or less allied units so long as they're not able to kill the foe units would improve this?

          This issue also makes AI probe teams less threatening, since they tend to all move out of a base at once, and often are all stacked. Easy pickings.

          3. Lack of co-ordination of air and ground/sea forces
          Probably far too complex/would have negative spin offs, but I find that foe air power often comes in and kills some random units (police defenders, formers), then dies to air superiority counters. If the AI could start using drop pods effectively along with that kind of harassment, they'd be a lot more of a nuisance. And similarly, if they had more of a tendency to focus air power on bases which they had a land unit capable of capturing that'd be excellent.

          This is the least specific, but I think possibly a large part of the reason that the AI ceases to provide any real threat after airpower in my games, they don't get how to use that kind of army very well.


          I see you've already made a change to the main production gripe I have (far too many transports) and are looking into/working on the main base management issue (handling FM badly and having infinite pacifism drones), when there's a SMAX version I'll do some playtesting and see what else stands out. Using clean reactors and rehomeing to a punishment sphere/specialist base to avoid FM drones would be amazing if you could teach them it, but perhaps too complex.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by ete View Post
            I've not played multiplayer, but I beat Transcend without cheese (only a few crawlers/no clear AI exploits/etc) basically every game, and am glad you're working on improving the AI. I have only played a few games with the previous patch (SMAX only)
            SMAX patch has almost NO AI improvement. Just the terraforming basics. Nothing from all the other, important stuff. So you have seen nothing.

            1. Not attacking with hurry
            I find the AI units never (in my experience) attack with the hurry penalty. This means that, for example, you can move your army to two squares from an AI base defended by a few Impact infantry without armor and a plasma defender, wait a turn, then move in (accepting a -33% hurry on non-elite infantry) and kill far more than they would've lost by moving out to attack you with their weapons.
            Interesting. Not sure I can solve it, but I can try. AI unit movement fonction is incredibly complex.

            2. Tendency to stack very badly, especially at chokepoints
            Harder to fix, but this and the damage to all in stack mechanics has allowed me to defend much larger attack forces with only a few rovers. -- This issue also makes AI probe teams less threatening, since they tend to all move out of a base at once, and often are all stacked. Easy pickings.
            Hard to change, I guess.

            3. Lack of co-ordination of air and ground/sea forces
            There could be a few small improvements here, which at the end could give us a visible improvement. No air focus on formers or empty transports - it seems ridiculous but these things can really help if used in large quantities.

            Using clean reactors and rehomeing to a punishment sphere/specialist base to avoid FM drones would be amazing if you could teach them it, but perhaps too complex.
            That is on thhe simple side.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by kyrub View Post
              No, I am unable to make "really good AI", to be honest. "Less stupid things" is what I do, as good AI decisions as possible on the little space I find. MoM is a great game, one of the best in TB genre, but very old. The AI used to be his mega weakness, now it's far better, almost unplayable on the highest difficulty.

              If you search a very good AI in turn based game, I have been told several times that Mechanized Assault Exploration (M.A.X.) can really turn you inside out. C-evo is a civ-like game, which has a very good AI (but otherwise it's conceptually a bit dry) - an AI professor told me this.
              I'd never heard of MAX but found it on gog.com, thanks for the suggestion. I also have Civ-Evo which I really like, has an atmosphere of sorts, gotta put time into these games now D:

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by MegaTurtleRex View Post
                I'd never heard of MAX but found it on gog.com, thanks for the suggestion. I also have Civ-Evo which I really like, has an atmosphere of sorts, gotta put time into these games now D:
                You'll need DOSBox if your OS is Win98 or newer.
                I am on a mission to see how much coffee it takes to actually achieve time travel. :frantic:

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                • #98
                  It'll be in the GOG install.
                  Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Ben Franklin
                  Iain Banks missed deadline due to Civ | The eyes are the groin of the head. - Dwight Schrute.
                  One more turn .... One more turn .... | WWTSD

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Lord Avalon View Post
                    I know this goes back in the thread a ways, but what is this "Talent-facility bug"?
                    I finally found the thread describing the bug.
                    http://www.civgaming.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7407

                    Can anybody understand and confirm if the bug in question exists or not?

                    Comment


                    • It seems to me that it might be a matter of the order in which drone quelling stuff gets applied. Facilities/projects which are supposed to produce talents are instead turning superdrones into drones. Confirmations are in that thread.

                      Perhaps the psych [edit: and police] and regular drone quelling facilities/projects could be applied before the talent-producing ones.

                      I guess there could still be the question that if you're left with drones or superdrones after the application of psych [edit: and police] and regular facilities/projects (if any), should a talent-producing facility/project still promote all the way to talent, which would follow their descriptions? Otherwise they just follow the superdrone -> drone -> citizen -> talent path, and you might not get any talents.
                      Last edited by Lord Avalon; January 20, 2013, 21:15.
                      Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Ben Franklin
                      Iain Banks missed deadline due to Civ | The eyes are the groin of the head. - Dwight Schrute.
                      One more turn .... One more turn .... | WWTSD

                      Comment


                      • Hello people,

                        I've downloaded the SMAC_444_l AI patch via the RPG Codex. Played the game for a while until I encountered a bug I've never seen before. Something resembling a floating city (I think) appeared from a fungus patch, bearing the red bar of a native hostile. I sent a unit of mind worms to deal with it. Upon attacking the game told me that the odds were very much against me. When I ordered the attack anyway, the game crashed. I didn't think of taking a screenshot.

                        Oh, and before that, at the beginning of the turn, the tech selection screen included the SMAX techs.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gondolin View Post
                          Oh, and before that, at the beginning of the turn, the tech selection screen included the SMAX techs.
                          Hi Gondolin.
                          You did not install the "SMAC" patch over SMAX install, did you? (try again with pure SMAC)

                          Comment


                          • I've played some games with the latest test build...
                            It does seem to work pretty well compared to vanilla.

                            I've seen AI do this not seen in vanilla game: -build condenser...
                            -raise terrain to get to my island, and build roads towards my bases? Or maybe that's just basic expansion

                            Also, it seems, especially on smaller maps where expansion is not easy that the AI will terraform nicely.
                            It can be seen in the save. Has whole map revealed via satellite.

                            Here's a save from one game where Brother Lal decided that the best way to keep peace is to nuke my base that contained MCC and HSA. I had no idea checking the 'intense rivalry' would make the game so 'intense'.
                            The fusion blast's one the next turn.

                            I guess in those games it'd make sense to build some of these expensive supply crawlers, use them to hurry prototype PB's in all my bases and then nuke any base with PB's in them.

                            Weird.. Yang has had a buster for quite some time and haven't used it..
                            Attached Files

                            Comment


                            • Hi MWQ

                              Thanks for feedback. I am now rarely seen here on apolyton.
                              Most of the patch discussion has moved to http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?board=13.0

                              kyrub

                              Comment


                              • SMAC 444 - AI patch version [p]

                                Description: New release of AI patch for SMAC - 17/5/2014
                                http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php...=view;down=260

                                New features

                                AI Terraforming
                                - AI got a basic lesson in advanced terraforming (boreholes, condensers, less raising terrain)
                                - it builds no more bunkers
                                - it builds denser sensor array network

                                AI crawlers
                                - AI builds now tends to build crawlers earlier and slightly more of them
                                - AI crawls more intelligently its resources

                                AI Social Engineering
                                - the patch includes an emergency fix of the worst parts of social engineering code
                                - AI now understands that pacifist drones are a major problem

                                AI buidling units
                                - AI spreads quicklier on oceans
                                - Morgan has got new incentive to spread quickly
                                - AIs build less of probes, bar Miriam
                                - a lot more AAA defense
                                - AI now likes rovers and choppers

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