I'm sick of the drones!

[tillicollpase]

Hi, I am new to the forum.
I've recently started playing SMACX again and on the transcend difficulty level. (before, it used to be talent)
Now that I started doing that, I realize there are so many things about the game I just didn't know about.
As a starter, how do I prevent drones from joining other factions?
I am Morgan, and every once in a while a couple of bases defect to the Cult.
And then after a few turns, the Cult would destroy the bases. I've lost more than 10 bases like this. (Also, why just Cult? They are the weakest faction, with only two bases. DO the drones always decide to join the weakest faction? I mean, the Cult is halfway across the globe and I haven't even come into contact with them other than by when my own bases fell into their hands. So why Cult?)
I have all the base facilities regarding drones, like rec commons, network node with virtual world, and I allocate 60% to psych, and I also station military units as police.
Two other factions press vendetta against me, but at the time those bases defected I had no military unit outside of my territory.
What more can I do to prevent drones joining other factions?
Relatedly, is there a way to induce other faction's bases to join me?
It's hella annoying and I can't find an answer anywhere.

Also, why does air unit sometimes create 2 drones? My first air unit did that, while the subsequent ones do not.

Also, in general, where can I find explanations of various stats in the game?
I have been trying to make sense, but managing drones and diplomacy are the most puzzling aspects of the game.
How do you make other factions happy? Is it possible at all to sign a pact with a faction with different social choice other than by surrender or against a common enemy? How valuable is giving, say 100 energy credits to another faction as opposed to using that credit to purchase a base facility?
Do other factions appreciate the gift at all? (I mean, their mood seems to change the moment they receive it, but if I get out of conversation and contact them right away, the mood has fallen back to the previous level. Was it a waste of money?)

The manuals and strat guides explain the general principles and rules, but with the game being so complex, it's hard to find answers to specific questions.
Sorry for spamming and thanks.

[vyeh]

Hi, I am new to the forum.

Welcome to Apolyton Civilization Site and to the SMAC Community. You should be aware that there are other SMAC forums.

I've recently started playing SMACX again and on the transcend difficulty level. (before, it used to be talent)

Congratulations. What other games, especially Civ type games, have you played? (It will help me in follow up posts if I have some idea.)

Talent to transcend is quite a jump. It probably is a good idea to play transcend (I've heard that most SMAC players play transcend), but drone issues are a lot more pronounced at transcend than at talent.

Now that I started doing that, I realize there are so many things about the game I just didn't know about.

Give me some idea of what you know and your experience with SMAC.

As a starter, how do I prevent drones from joining other factions?

If your base is in riot for more than a turn, you run the risk of a base defecting. So I always take some action to stop a riot immediately.

Techniques include turning a citizen into a specialist, turning a specialist into a doctor, empath or transcend, building a colony pod, building a drone control facility, building a drone controlling secret project, changing your energy allocation, moving or eliminating a unit that is outside your territory, social engineering, nerve stapling and moving workers to different squares.

I am Morgan, and every once in a while a couple of bases defect to the Cult.
And then after a few turns, the Cult would destroy the bases. I've lost more than 10 bases like this. (Also, why just Cult? They are the weakest faction, with only two bases. DO the drones always decide to join the weakest faction? I mean, the Cult is halfway across the globe and I haven't even come into contact with them other than by when my own bases fell into their hands. So why Cult?)

If the Drones are in the game, there is supposed to be a greater chance that your rioting bases will defect to the Drones. I'm not sure what factors affect which faction your defecting bases will choose.

I have all the base facilities regarding drones, like rec commons, network node with virtual world, and I allocate 60% to psych, and I also station military units as police.

It sounds like you need to understand how the game generates drones. On p. 72 of the manual, there are five lines for psych determination.

Unmodified
Psych
Facilities
Police
Secret Projects

The kicker is that if drones are generated in the police line (e.g you are running free market), only the secret projects line can suppress drones although talents created by earlier lines can balance the new drones.

Two other factions press vendetta against me, but at the time those bases defected I had no military unit outside of my territory.

Air units other than interceptors inside your territory can also generate drones.

What more can I do to prevent drones joining other factions?

One technique is to create a specialist only base, supported by crawlers to feed its citizens and provide mineral support, or a base having a punishment sphere and home all your non-interceptor aircraft and your expeditionary military units to that base.

Relatedly, is there a way to induce other faction's bases to join me?

Use probe teams and mind control.

It's hella annoying and I can't find an answer anywhere.

I and other veterans can answer many of your questions and link to the appropriate threads and on line sources.

Also, why does air unit sometimes create 2 drones? My first air unit did that, while the subsequent ones do not.

If your police rating is -5, each air unit that is not an interceptor or that is outside your territory will create 2 drones. An interceptor unit inside your territory will not create a drone. It could be that if you only have four citizens and a drone controlling secret project, you maxed out at four drones and the drone controlling secret project reversed one of them.

Also, in general, where can I find explanations of various stats in the game?

I like the Manual and Prima's Strategy Guide. I'd need to know which stats you are interested in before I suggested on line sources.

I have been trying to make sense, but managing drones and diplomacy are the most puzzling aspects of the game.

I don't think you've run into children's creche and morale.

How do you make other factions happy?

Basically, you choose a social choice that is the other faction's agenda or you choose the default social choice in the same line as the other faction's agenda; you have a good reputation; you haven't broken your word in the past with the faction; if you are in a pact, you have supported that faction in any vendetta; and you have accepted trade offers.

Is it possible at all to sign a pact with a faction with different social choice other than by surrender or against a common enemy?

Yes.

How valuable is giving, say 100 energy credits to another faction as opposed to using that credit to purchase a base facility?

It depends on the situation.

Do other factions appreciate the gift at all? (I mean, their mood seems to change the moment they receive it, but if I get out of conversation and contact them right away, the mood has fallen back to the previous level. Was it a waste of money?)

Depending on the faction, they will appreciate any gift, but how long the mood lasts depends on other factors.

The manuals and strat guides explain the general principles and rules, but with the game being so complex, it's hard to find answers to specific questions.

That is probably the biggest value of this forum and other forums. There are other people who visit this forum who will be happy to help you. There are people at other forums who will be happy to help you.

This used to be my home forum, but currently I am present at four forums and I usually don't check here as often as I check at other forums. If I know you are here, I will check more often.

Sorry for spamming

I don't think you understand the concept of spam. One long post is welcomed by even the most hostile spam hater. Your post is very on topic for this forum.

Some people hate posters who double post or create multiple threads. Believe me, there are plenty of people who will say you are the very antithesis of a spammer.

and thanks.

You are very welcome!

I like interacting with newcomers.

Please feel free to tell me where you would like me to elaborate. And it would be helpful if you told me your background with SMAC and other games so I can better tailor my answers.

[Petek]

I'd like to add some comments to vyeh's very complete reply: You need to stop drone riots on the very first turn that they occur. So make sure that you've selected Stop for Drone Riots in the game's options menu. By doing so, you'll get a popup message as soon as a base starts rioting. The AI's bases will never defect to you because of riots. The AI always stops the riots as soon as they occur. Finally, the mechanism that determines to which faction your base defects isn't completely understood (AFAIK). In games in which the Drone faction isn't present, it's thought that the base defects to the nearest faction. If the Drones are present, there's supposedly a 75% chance the base will defect to them. However, I tested this several years ago and couldn't verify it.

And welcome to Apolyton!

Petek

[vishniac]

If your base is in riot for more than a turn, you run the risk of a base defecting. So I always take some action to stop a riot immediately.

Techniques include turning a citizen into a specialist, turning a specialist into a doctor, empath or transcend, building a colony pod, building a drone control facility, building a drone controlling secret project, changing your energy allocation, moving or eliminating a unit that is outside your territory, social engineering, nerve stapling and moving workers to different squares.

I always take action immediately but always by turning a citizen (the drone) into a doctor. I'd like turning a citizen into, say, an engineer; it would give me some lab points, not some 'useless' psych. But turning a citizen to specialist just moves the drone to the left.
Tell me, Vyeh, does it have to do with:

48) Q: In SMACX, I see a bunch of drones in the base screen. When I change to the "Psych" view from the "Resources" view to see where the drones are coming from, they aren't there. The base doesn't riot, even though it displays extra drones. What is going on?

A: This is a known bug. The only workarounds are either to review the Psych screen or to go to the F4 screen and select "Citizens". Otherwise, you can just wait for drone riots and correct the situation after the fact.

Also, is it always better to get specialists (who give lab or economy bonuses) or are doctors sometimes better (calming more drones besides themselves)? I never really wanted to know about psych, always kept it at 0% and don't like to enter the complicated world of drone-appearing-equation.

[vyeh]

I always take action immediately but always by turning a citizen (the drone) into a doctor. I'd like turning a citizen into, say, an engineer; it would give me some lab points, not some 'useless' psych. But turning a citizen to specialist just moves the drone to the left.

The key is that a specialist is neither a drone nor a talent.

If your base was stable at 4 citizens and becomes unstable at 5 citizens, then when you turn the 5th citizen into an engineer, you now have restored stability, because the last citizen(s) is (are) the drone(s) and when you turn a citizen into a specialist, it is the last citizen that becomes a specialist.

So assuming that you have at least 5 citizens, it never makes sense for the first specialist to be a doctor/empath/transcendi.

When you already have a specialist or specialists and the next citizen would cause a riot, then it makes sense to see if turning the existing specialist(s) into a doctor/empath/transcendi would solve the problem.

So creating a specialist does not shift the drones to the left. What it does is convert the right most citizen which is always a drone if you have any drones.

Tell me, Vyeh, does it have to do with:

The display bug has nothing to do with what I am discussing. I always look at the Psych screen.

Also, is it always better to get specialists (who give lab or economy bonuses) or are doctors sometimes better (calming more drones besides themselves)?

In maximizing your output, it is better to get specialists who give you labs or credits than specialists who give you psych if you can.

However, specialists don't give you nutrients or minerals, so it might be better to have one or two specialists that are primarily psych than two or three specialists.

Once you have crawlers, your base is 5 citizens or more and you can have advanced specialists, it always makes more sense to crawl condensors/farm/soil enricher squares and turn the worker that would have worked that square into a specialist.

Take a look at the SMAC game turn, ACDG5_2194_final, attached to this post. Look at Yang's Last Stand at (11,9).

Note how there are two thinkers. There could have been two engineers. Try turning one thinker into an empath and turning the other thinker into a worker. Notice that there are now more drones than talents.

So the optimum is either two thinkers or two engineers (depending on how you value labs versus credits).

I never really wanted to know about psych, always kept it at 0% and don't like to enter the complicated world of drone-appearing-equation.

While there are rules, I tend to follow these guidelines:

(1) Build recreation commons just in time and hologram theatres (or network nodes if you have the virtual world) just in time (assuming you are at transcend) because you can only have doctor/empath/transcend for bases that have less than five citizens.

(2) After that, use crawlers to boost nutrients and minerals and go for specialists that produce either labs or credits. With advanced terraforming, it makes sense to crawl condensors/farms/soil enrichers and mines and work only boreholes. Then the rest of your energy needs are met through specialists.

(3) Keep psych allocation at 0%.

(4) Use trial and error to see which combination of specialists and workers gives the best production depending on my strategic situation.

[vishniac]

Uh!
Thanks a lot, that should really help a lot in MP, winning a few turns here and there with lab research or hurrying can make a difference.

[Mart]

There is a good strategy guide, by Vel:

http://www.weplayciv.com/wiki/Vel%27s_SMAX_Guide

The link is to WPC wiki site in construction, but the guide is a very good one, version 4.0. It explains a lot of details.

some mechanics is a bit difficult in smacx, e.g. needlejets or copters may generate drones, as in very low police setting, even inside faction borders. There was a discussion, that they may be considered as being always outside the borders. I'm not sure about the details. some ways to deal with it is to have punishment spheres in selected bases that would support all planes, or just bases having only specialists and needed nutrients and minerals could be provided by crawlers. Good way of being in vendetta and in Free Market.

Generally as for drones, some way to deal with them is to have some "safety margin" of talents, which would be in excess to drones, then drone riots could be more easily prevented, but you sacrifice efficiency since you need to assign some resources (in broad meaning here) to generating additional talents. For less competitive games this is a good solution.

[GooglyBoogly]

If your base is in riot for more than a turn

Maybe I've just learnt somethimg. But I was under the impression that the second turn a base riots can/must? cause a facility to be destroyed, and it is the 3rd+ turn in which you need to be wary of a base defecting.

[vishniac]

The key is that a specialist is neither a drone nor a talent.

If your base was stable at 4 citizens and becomes unstable at 5 citizens, then when you turn the 5th citizen into an engineer, you now have restored stability, because the last citizen(s) is (are) the drone(s) and when you turn a citizen into a specialist, it is the last citizen that becomes a specialist.

So assuming that you have at least 5 citizens, it never makes sense for the first specialist to be a doctor/empath/transcendi.

When you already have a specialist or specialists and the next citizen would cause a riot, then it makes sense to see if turning the existing specialist(s) into a doctor/empath/transcendi would solve the problem.

So creating a specialist does not shift the drones to the left. What it does is convert the right most citizen which is always a drone if you have any drones.

I tested it. Still have the problem.
Base (Pirate) has one scout patrol as police (game level: talent), no anti-drone facility. 6th citizen becomes a drone.
I then turn him into a librarian. Next turn, still drone riots. I turn a second one into librarian. Next turn, still drone riots (but they don't get worse, no facility destroyed. It's like they start anew each turn).
so:
- with 3 workers and 3 librarians, I still get drone riots!
- but turning the 1st drone into a doctor, I got a talent and no subsequent riots, and I can enjoy my 5 workers.

Not a good incentive to use no-psych specialists.
Something I overlooked?

[vyeh]

Could you post a save?

[vishniac]

Not here. It seems I can't post a SAV here, and I hate playing with zip/unzip and such.

I posted the save on this WPC thread

[Mart]

maybe the problem is with graphics showing workers instead of drones. Scient's patch fixed that, but if you use other exe, it often shows citizens not correctly. what is ok, is going to city screen, and checking "psych" tab, that one next to resources and support tabs.
---
almost forgot, the F4 screen shows them ok too.

[vishniac]

It doesnt' seem to be just graphic.
The psych screen shows the same as city screen; the voice tells about drone riots, pauses and lets me go to city screen to fix; there is a drone icon above the city and I couldn't hurry production if I wanted to.

These drones are RIOTING, AAAAAAAAHHH!!!!!
(Excuse me but I just watched "The conquest of the Planet of the Apes" the other day and now when I see drone riots, it remembers me that)

[vyeh]

Mart,

This is interesting. ACDG5 was a SMAC game. Vishniac's game is a SMAX game.

In SMAC, the right most drone is replaced by a specialist on the unmodified line. In SMAX the left most citizen is replaced by a specialist.

Scient will be happy.

Thank you, vishniac! (I always like it when I discover quirks in the game.)

To suppress the drone in SMAX, you can't just turn it into a specialist.

You have several techniques available. Short term, you have 5 workers and a drone. Start with turning one worker into a doctor. If you do that, you see that you now have one doctor, 1 talent, 3 workers and a drone, which is not going to riot. This is the best short term solution.

Other techniques would be to adjust the slider until you generate 2 psychs, but that is wasteful as it affects bases that aren't rioting.

You could also build a recreation commons, which is what I would recommend you do as soon as you finish the PTS.

[Mart]

I remember, that drone numbers in smacx are not exactly integers. The system is a bit complex. There is some "drone magnitude" value (either float or integer) that later is used to calculate actual break between talents/workers/drones. And then sometimes it can show in a way we are surprised. somewhere here on Apoly there is a discussion about "super drones" that are not a kind of a different drone, but just a representation of "drone value" being large.

I saw the save file from WPC. I tried also quickly both smac and smax and they both worked similar way for me. I tried some large base in scenario editor and I think it may have something to do how the talents/workers/drones break is done in stages:
- psych
- facilities
- police
it looks to me, that what we do with specialists influences somehow the "unmodified" state, before the psych/facility/police corrections. Maybe even some undocumented game feature is here, (smac is full of undocumented stuff). Or maybe someone already described it. what I guess now, is that game re-evaluates drones for each case separately, after any specialist change we make, and sometimes this gives no change in drones after worker, e.g. last worker does not change into drone, but in other times it changes into drone.

another thought:
I think I read somewhere that even if you have democracy after discovering appropriate tech influences your "drone value." And that would be somewhere in the initial "unmodified" state. there may be other small features/formulas like that