SMAX Angel Scenario: Adaptation 101

[Darsnan]

Originally posted by Lazerus
Well I went on the offensive to save hanging around for a transcend and got a 2526 diplomatic victory (... yeah you read that right, add a few more turns for conquest )

You won the scenario in 26 turns?

Originally posted by Lazerus
The scen is definately interesting to play, no air power until late game and the oddity of fungus rather then forests makes it feel like you've just started playing smax for the first time and rovers are the coolest thing about however it is a tad on the easy side.

Its good that you found it interesting to play. Note that this was my first attempt at building an alphax.txt for a planetoid/ asteroid (i.e. no air/ no water, and implications thereof): I've got some other ideas I'm gonna try in my next scenario to see how they work, then I'll take the "best of" both scenarios and start to really see how good I can make things. If you've got some ideas/ other observations as to what worked/ what didn't in this environment I'd definately like to hear them.

Originally posted by Lazerus
Gaians/Cult never really got going (Hive hit gaians but the cult just stagnated, I think they need more fungus and perhaps a faction modifier).

The Gaians/ Cult were supposed to be a delaying tactic for the Hive (i.e. give them something to do in the early game/ get rid of wasted minerals supporting obsolete units). By the time the Hive was done with them, there should be quite a few Hive veteran/ Elite units to have to deal with. Ideally (and in my playtesting) the Hive then marches west en masse, and you then have to contend with wave after wave of Hive units.

Originally posted by Lazerus
After an initial skirmish with the Drones they became pacifist which is a shame since they had alot more fungus then most giving them 2-2-1 in all squares and easy size 14 bases. PKs were the most aggressive towards me however as I said a few probes pretty much stalled them without decent units.
The Hive made use of SP88's (pumped out over 100 even at the expensive of the battletanks) however I'm not sure how early they got them and it was me attacking them with 12-1-11 gravs which just flew over most stuck in that fungus patch in the middle and tore through and took nearly all bases before they could respond.

Ideally the Hive would also be building hovertanks and gravships at the same time, contributing to the masses of units already marching west.

Originally posted by Lazerus
I'd say stick the player between PK/Hive to make things alot tougher .

Just remember, you suggested it.......

[Lazerus]

Originally posted by Darsnan


You won the scenario in 26 turns?

Errr 2626 rather

Its good that you found it interesting to play. Note that this was my first attempt at building an alphax.txt for a planetoid/ asteroid (i.e. no air/ no water, and implications thereof): I've got some other ideas I'm gonna try in my next scenario to see how they work, then I'll take the "best of" both scenarios and start to really see how good I can make things. If you've got some ideas/ other observations as to what worked/ what didn't in this environment I'd definately like to hear them.

I think the ability to remove fungus could be moved onto a more mainline tech even if it is later in the tree to be honest. It was more of a nuisance then anything else when conquering bases having to plant 2 forests and wait for them to spread although this could be what you want, it certainly saved on the time spent controlling terraformers

The Gaians/ Cult were supposed to be a delaying tactic for the Hive (i.e. give them something to do in the early game/ get rid of wasted minerals supporting obsolete units). By the time the Hive was done with them, there should be quite a few Hive veteran/ Elite units to have to deal with. Ideally (and in my playtesting) the Hive then marches west en masse, and you then have to contend with wave after wave of Hive units.

They had alot but most were bogged down in the fungus and trying to get past your sentinel cities.

Ideally the Hive would also be building hovertanks and gravships at the same time, contributing to the masses of units already marching west.

They were quite abit away from that still in my game, researching organic superlubricant before they had advanced subatomic/silk/monopole so another 25+ turns at best. Turn on steal tech when conquering base perhaps ?

Just remember, you suggested it.......

[Darsnan]

Originally posted by Lazerus
Errr 2626 rather

I just may have to bring this up in a conversation later, such as "well, anyone who can beat my scenarios in 26 turns....."

Originally posted by Lazerus
I think the ability to remove fungus could be moved onto a more mainline tech even if it is later in the tree to be honest. It was more of a nuisance then anything else when conquering bases having to plant 2 forests and wait for them to spread although this could be what you want, it certainly saved on the time spent controlling terraformers

Yeah, I think this was my attempt at trying to force human players into not running FM (you notice I kept asking you about that): more of a dogmatic change to the game than actually giving people an option as to their desired playing style. However here again I see an opportunity to attempt to water down the traditional beelines in that I could insert the "clear xenoflora" option into a less desireable tech, say maybe Field Modulation? This would then make it relatively easy to acquire (two techs only), however the player would purposely have to break from the traditional beelines in order to gain this capability.

Regardless, generally speaking hopefully you can see what I am doing here is trying to keep the game fresh by creating new and very different environments to play in: I don't think anyone has ever tried to develop an alphax.txt for an asteroid/ planetoid before. Trying to make a realistic and plausible alphax.txt that takes into account the fact that there is little or no air or water in this environment, while maintaining gaming balance, and making the gaming environment enjoyable to play is...... difficult. I think I've had several good ideas that will migrate forward into the next scenario, I've got some additional ideas I'm going to add and playtest, and you and vyeh have given me some good feedback: hopefully my next cut will be a good step forward.

Originally posted by Lazerus
They had alot but most were bogged down in the fungus and trying to get past your sentinel cities.

Yeah, it takes them a while to get thru that morass, but once they do, they keep coming, and keep coming, and keep coming! I've got some ideas for the next scenario in this regard: we'll see how they shake out in playtesting.

Originally posted by Lazerus
They were quite abit away from that still in my game, researching organic superlubricant before they had advanced subatomic/silk/monopole so another 25+ turns at best. Turn on steal tech when conquering base perhaps ?

Humans can really abuse the "Steal tech when conquer base" option. Perhaps give an AI the "SHARETECH, 1" option instead?

D

[vyeh]

Originally posted by Darsnan
Regardless, generally speaking hopefully you can see what I am doing here is trying to keep the game fresh by creating new and very different environments to play in: I don't think anyone has ever tried to develop an alphax.txt for an asteroid/ planetoid before. Trying to make a realistic and plausible alphax.txt that takes into account the fact that there is little or no air or water in this environment, while maintaining gaming balance, and making the gaming environment enjoyable to play is...... difficult. I think I've had several good ideas that will migrate forward into the next scenario, I've got some additional ideas I'm going to add and playtest, and you and vyeh have given me some good feedback: hopefully my next cut will be a good step forward.

May I suggest that you look at the incomplete Harsh Planet mod?

What I liked about the mod could be incorporated into your next airless, waterless scenario, specifically:

(1) requiring 3 nutrients per population points;

(2) the base square only gets 1/1/1;

(3) recycling tanks are disabled;

(4) the AI gets free pressure domes; and

(5) forests start at 0/1/2.

I think these changes regarding nutrients would fit into a airless, waterless environment. The need to produce water and air require additional hydroponic resources.

Pressure domes are useful on land (because they give the recycling tanks 1/1/1 bonus) as well as on detritus.

The AI's are given an advantage (I'm sure this is a plus in your eyes).

And forests (maybe they could be crystals that spread in your scenario) do not produce nutrients, but are a source of minerals and energy.

Anyway, with the change of detritus to -2 nutrients, I think the above changes are plausible on an airless, waterless planetoid.

I'll leave the issue of game balance to you. If the AI's are spreading too fast, maybe the free pressure domes are too much.

While slow base growth may be frustrating to some SMAC players, I think others might enjoy less base management.

[Lazerus]

Originally posted by Darsnan

Yeah, I think this was my attempt at trying to force human players into not running FM (you notice I kept asking you about that): more of a dogmatic change to the game than actually giving people an option as to their desired playing style. However here again I see an opportunity to attempt to water down the traditional beelines in that I could insert the "clear xenoflora" option into a less desireable tech, say maybe Field Modulation? This would then make it relatively easy to acquire (two techs only), however the player would purposely have to break from the traditional beelines in order to gain this capability.

Regardless, generally speaking hopefully you can see what I am doing here is trying to keep the game fresh by creating new and very different environments to play in: I don't think anyone has ever tried to develop an alphax.txt for an asteroid/ planetoid before. Trying to make a realistic and plausible alphax.txt that takes into account the fact that there is little or no air or water in this environment, while maintaining gaming balance, and making the gaming environment enjoyable to play is...... difficult. I think I've had several good ideas that will migrate forward into the next scenario, I've got some additional ideas I'm going to add and playtest, and you and vyeh have given me some good feedback: hopefully my next cut will be a good step forward.

I think field modulation would be a more viable option, the player can most likely trade trade/steal that from the AI atleast since I finished the game without the ability to remove fungus.

I'll give it a quick playthrough again this time trying planned from the start and utilizing fungus rather then the FM approach and see how it goes.
So far it's 2530 and I've just built the PTS and stolen social psych from the Drones so I might even get VW aswell .... how do you people cope with these drones without stapling them?! Every turn there's some base rioting, this stuff doesn't happen in the Hiverian utopia.
Growth looks to be above what I was at running FM from the start due to plentiful 2-2-1 since I went straight for cent eco however tech rate is 7 turns compared to 4 but I suppose that's normal.

Yeah, it takes them a while to get thru that morass, but once they do, they keep coming, and keep coming, and keep coming! I've got some ideas for the next scenario in this regard: we'll see how they shake out in playtesting.

Drones seem abit more irritated by me for some reason this game, declared war on me straight away so I killed a couple of his cp's and as such I've more territory this game so I might experience the wave effect. Cult has somehow got a rover closing in on me that I can see from a sensor so possibly have to engage some of his units depending on how diplomacy goes, perhaps a chance to ally with the Hive against the cultic menace

Humans can really abuse the "Steal tech when conquer base" option. Perhaps give an AI the "SHARETECH, 1" option instead?

D

The player probably wouldn't gain much more then what I did via the mass probe raping that I carried out on the PKs but one of those two options should be implemented imo although if it's sharetech 1 maybe a faction between the player and the Hive lol.

[Darsnan]

Originally posted by vyeh
May I suggest that you look at the incomplete Harsh Planet mod?

What I liked about the mod could be incorporated into your next airless, waterless scenario, specifically:

(1) requiring 3 nutrients per population points;

(2) the base square only gets 1/1/1;

(3) recycling tanks are disabled;

(4) the AI gets free pressure domes; and

(5) forests start at 0/1/2.

Thats not harsh - thats... Draconian!

Originally posted by vyeh
I think these changes regarding nutrients would fit into a airless, waterless environment. The need to produce water and air require additional hydroponic resources.

I agree. Now that you brought this mod (back) to my attention I do recall playing around with some of the growth parameters mentioned (such as 3 nutrients per population point): it took forever for me to grow, and heaven forbid I had drone riots!

Originally posted by vyeh
Anyway, with the change of detritus to -2 nutrients, I think the above changes are plausible on an airless, waterless planetoid.

While slow base growth may be frustrating to some SMAC players, I think others might enjoy less base management.

I've got to step out for the afternoon, so I'm going to paraphrase here: I understand a lot of what Gallagher is referring to in his Harsh Planet thread, and can probably come close in duplicating his modifications to the alphax.txt. What I can do for my next scenario is include a copy of my version of Gallagher's Harsh Mod alphax.txt, and we can do an apples to apples comparison in gameplay and see what shakes out from there. Does this sound like a good idea?

Originally posted by Gallagher in 2001
Both Base and Sensor defense bonuses increased to 40%

Absolutely amazing that great ideas like this have been forgetten in the mists of time. I'll have to ensure Gallagher gets credit for this idea in my comments/ observations blurbs.

[Lazerus]

Well here it goes for the xeno planned route thus far:

2569 and I'm currently double the strength of the Hive who are in second place due to my nerve stapled perma demo/planned popboom giving me 165 pop and rising (would have been scary if I did this 10 turns earlier). Some of that is the PK's bases which I'm currently mowing through with ease since he hasn't reached airpower for SP88s so the best units he's got are 2-1-2 and 1-2ECM-1 which are being slaughtered by my 6-1-2 and 1-3-2 since i stole SFF from the Drones.

What's making it simpler aswell is that whilst fungus is food for me I also grabbed the xenoempathy dome so movement is no problem either and letting me attack from any direction and at a massive distance. Move this SP further back.

I believe the 3nuts per citizen you're mentioning above could be useful in countering this fungus fuelled perma popboom or atleast lower the base production tile and have the pressure domes a mid game facility although that's going to take some playtesting to stop players going FM and waiting for forests to spread like I did.

[vyeh]

Originally posted by Darsnan
What I can do for my next scenario is include a copy of my version of Gallagher's Harsh Mod alphax.txt, and we can do an apples to apples comparison in gameplay and see what shakes out from there. Does this sound like a good idea?

Unfortunately, Gallagher didn't post his alphax.txt.

I PM'd Blake, but he no longer had a copy.

I'm pretty sure I could figure out what he did to the faction files. I'd like to know what happened in the World Building section of alphax.txt, but since you're doing a scenario, this isn't relevant.

[Darsnan]

Originally posted by vyeh
I'm pretty sure I could figure out what he did to the faction files. I'd like to know what happened in the World Building section of alphax.txt, but since you're doing a scenario, this isn't relevant.

What I've done is copied the relevent entries in the Harsh Mod thread into a word document, and by reviewing this document I will see if I can replicate the alphax.txt from there. A lot of what Gallagher was mentioning is familiar to me, so I should be able to give it a good go. Note though in regards to his compression of the top portion of the tech tree, that I have no clue what he did, so am not going to attempt to modify that portion.

The first cut at the map for the new scenario is about 40% done. I may have something by next weekend, but more likely in two weeks time (especially since I'm working dual alphax.txt's).

Originally posted by Lazerus
Well here it goes for the xeno planned route thus far:

2569 and I'm currently double the strength of the Hive who are in second place due to my nerve stapled perma demo/planned popboom giving me 165 pop and rising (would have been scary if I did this 10 turns earlier). Some of that is the PK's bases which I'm currently mowing through with ease since he hasn't reached airpower for SP88s so the best units he's got are 2-1-2 and 1-2ECM-1 which are being slaughtered by my 6-1-2 and 1-3-2 since i stole SFF from the Drones.

The game is much friendlier when you don't run FM.

Originally posted by Lazerus
What's making it simpler aswell is that whilst fungus is food for me I also grabbed the xenoempathy dome so movement is no problem either and letting me attack from any direction and at a massive distance. Move this SP further back.

This would then allow the AIs to develop in isolation moreso: I'll see what I can do in this regards.

Originally posted by Lazerus
I believe the 3nuts per citizen you're mentioning above could be useful in countering this fungus fuelled perma popboom or atleast lower the base production tile and have the pressure domes a mid game facility although that's going to take some playtesting to stop players going FM and waiting for forests to spread like I did.

Gallagher mentioned giving the AIs free Pressure Domes, which can be done relatively easily. In regards to the nutrients intake per citizen is concerned, instead of increasing the nutrient intake to 3, instead set the initial xenoflora production to 0/2/1 (meaning you'd have to research Centauri Ecology in order to make it 1/2/1), then combined with Gallagher's idea of the base squares only giving 1/1/1 should counter the "fungus fueled perma-popboom" approach, and still offer an enhanced option to going FM (which was the original driving impetus behind this).

This is going to be interesting trying to essentially build two games in parallel (and keeping both games seperated, both in my thought processes as well as in all of my notes that I take): I'm probably going to build each one on a seperate computer, just to make it easier for me to keep track. Probably still be some bugs/ inconsistencies in my comments, anyways.

D

[Darsnan]

Oh yeah, and as far as the bugs in this game were concerned: didn't anyone notice/ encounter the AI artillery bombarding them from greater than 2 squares distance?

D

[vyeh]

Originally posted by Lazerus
I believe the 3nuts per citizen you're mentioning above could be useful in countering this fungus fuelled perma popboom or atleast lower the base production tile and have the pressure domes a mid game facility although that's going to take some playtesting to stop players going FM and waiting for forests to spread like I did.

If the forests didn't produce any nutrients until tree farms (they represent crystallization) so the only nutrient benefit to their spreading is that they displaced fungus and you could now terraform the new forest/crystals into farms, how would this affect the strategy of going FM and waiting for forests/crystals to spread?

Would it make it less desirable since you would have to terraform the new forest/crystal square?

[GooglyBoogly]

Originally posted by vyeh
(1) requiring 3 nutrients per population points;
(2) the base square only gets 1/1/1;

That is pretty nasty, won't it cause a 1 pop base to be disbanded immediately if there are no 2nut squares nearby (for human) or 1nut for the AI.

I would think that a 2-1-1 start would be required to prevent the AI from constantly trying to set up bases that instantly disband

[Lazerus]

Originally posted by vyeh


If the forests didn't produce any nutrients until tree farms (they represent crystallization) so the only nutrient benefit to their spreading is that they displaced fungus and you could now terraform the new forest/crystals into farms, how would this affect the strategy of going FM and waiting for forests/crystals to spread?

Would it make it less desirable since you would have to terraform the new forest/crystal square?

I'm not really the most experienced builder FM player so I'd probably have to see that and try playing it to say properly but having to spend an extra few terraform turns likely wouldn't bother me too much if it meant an extra square to work. It would make popbooming alot more difficult though having to wait for hybrid forests so I'd go for the fungus route instead.

[Lazerus]

Originally posted by Darsnan
The game is much friendlier when you don't run FM.

Indeed, just completed a 2601 conquest victory.

[Lazerus]

Originally posted by GooglyBoogly


That is pretty nasty, won't it cause a 1 pop base to be disbanded immediately if there are no 2nut squares nearby (for human) or 1nut for the AI.

I would think that a 2-1-1 start would be required to prevent the AI from constantly trying to set up bases that instantly disband

AI would be using fungus and base square of 2-2-2 so they wouldn't suffer much of a problem, the scens are being purposefully made to be difficult for the player