How long since a "What faction would you join" thread???

[Darrell01]

CEO Aaron is the MAN!

I have my biases for and against politics, economics, values and such as well. Sometimes I find it hard to see the benefits of some social structure if I do not like it. Thats why I like reading the posts here. Someone can point out to me how something would be run or why its run this way for less obvious reasons that I might see. Just a warm fuzzy post.

[CEO Aaron]

CEO Aaron is the MAN!

Thanks. I too really get a kick out of the discourse here, posting here really keeps my dialectical skills sharp, and there's a lively amount of play in the discussion, unfettered by true partisanship you'd find in a more palms-up political forum.

Believers - I'll take your word on Believers. I've never played them (!!!!).

Wow! That comes as a bit of suprise to me, Hydro. Hey, I've even played the damned pirates at this point, and I hate those guys.

[Hydro]

I can find aesthetic spiritual balm in Yang’s People’s Utopia, certitude in the Spartan ethic, grace in Dee’s rolling green hills, and comfort in Morgan’s vision of economic prosperity. But for me the Believers offer nothing. I find them to be repugnant, and empty.

I guess I’m unable to put aside my Einsteinian religious ethos to buy into what I see as a regressive ideology based on ancient poetry about a glorified vengeful tribal god. I suppose this is framed in my take of what is happening in America these days, and religious extremists are as good a scapegoat as any.

Hydro

[Blake]

I must this thread beacuse I love this kind of discussion / philosophizing. And I made it deceptive in part to encourage people to justify their answer .

Anyway with those best/worst cases.

I tend to say that for the Hive, the best case is actually Knowledge, since that seems to fit with Yang's philosophy on enlightenment. Wealth is sort of giving up on that whole thing.
Whether you consider Wealth or Knowledge to be better really depends on whether you think Yang's philosophy is fatally flawed.
I for one enjoy living with minimal material comfort, so I have a strong personal bias towards Knowledge.

Police Vs Fundie: Most factions.

I feel that in many cases Fundie is a worst worst case than Police State. In a way, PS is EXTREMELY practical. As long as the people in charge have their heads screwed on (and most the faction leaders are portrayed as being fairly competent) then a PS is basically this:
Okay here's what needs to be done. You're going to do it, no whining.

PS is not inherently destructive, for example in game it can be used to support vast fleets of formers while still having a strong industry for building infrastructure.

As for the police bonus. Think for a moment what it'd be like living on a planet with extremely hostile mind-raping brain-eating terrors
Frontier: Will SOMEONE organize our %^#@ing defense already?!!!
Democracy: WHAT THE HELL? Why are we holding elections and making ourselves feel important when the MIND RAPING WORMS are out there?
Fundamentalism: Hey these sermons are mighty fine and all, a pity that the MIND-RAPING WORMS AREN'T ATTENDING THEM. Or maybe they will be if we don't focus on security! %&$#.

In a way Police State can be perceived as the ONLY practical form of government during the earlier years, as long as the perception is that the population is being forced to do what is in THEIR best interest, rather than the leaders best interest.

Fundamentalism on the other hand is a whole different can of worms. Especially in the game Fundamentalism's bonuses are highly biased towards spreading an ideology by force. This pretty much makes Fundamentalism synonymous with WAR.
It's really not that different from Police State except with more righteousness and the control is through "brain washing" rather than discipline / command. There may be no difference, it might be a case of "Profess your belief or get shot!".

Quality of life may be higher in a Fundie, if you discount the externality of war. I say MAY. There is no in game bonus to economic development. Everything about fundie screams stagnation of society.

This really is a case of pick your evil. Would you rather be disappeared for being a dissenter, or lynched for being a heretic? Would you rather be forced to do something at gunpoint, or forced to "believe" in something you don't?

Of course both PS and Fundie can pretty much be arbitrarily evil and it'd depend somewhat on the leader. Gaians for example probably have an "apologetic" police state, and a somewhat introverted fundamentalism. A Spartan Police State would be a truly brutal affair and I find something extremely unnerving about Morganite fundamentalism. And that's aside from the fact that Morgan is probably the best Fundamentalist in the game from a strict gameplay perspective.

[Mr. President]

How is it that everyone claims to hate the Believers, and yet they are winning the poll?

[Hydro]

In this case, winning is losing since it is about which faction you DON'T want to join.

Hydro

[korn469]

Blake,

I respectfully disagree with you.

Police Vs Fundie: Most factions.

I feel that in many cases Fundie is a worst worst case than Police State. In a way, PS is EXTREMELY practical. As long as the people in charge have their heads screwed on (and most the faction leaders are portrayed as being fairly competent) then a PS is basically this:
Okay here's what needs to be done. You're going to do it, no whining.

PS is not inherently destructive, for example in game it can be used to support vast fleets of formers while still having a strong industry for building infrastructure.

As for the police bonus. Think for a moment what it'd be like living on a planet with extremely hostile mind-raping brain-eating terrors
Frontier: Will SOMEONE organize our %^#@ing defense already?!!!
Democracy: WHAT THE HELL? Why are we holding elections and making ourselves feel important when the MIND RAPING WORMS are out there?
Fundamentalism: Hey these sermons are mighty fine and all, a pity that the MIND-RAPING WORMS AREN'T ATTENDING THEM. Or maybe they will be if we don't focus on security! %&$#.

In a way Police State can be perceived as the ONLY practical form of government during the earlier years, as long as the perception is that the population is being forced to do what is in THEIR best interest, rather than the leaders best interest.

The way I see governments is like this

*Survival governments just exist.
*Police State governments exist to further the aims of the Faction's leadership
*Democratic governments exist to further the aims of the Faction's people.
*Fundamentalists governments exist to further the aims of the Faction's ideology.

Fundamentalism on the other hand is a whole different can of worms. Especially in the game Fundamentalism's bonuses are highly biased towards spreading an ideology by force. This pretty much makes Fundamentalism synonymous with WAR.
It's really not that different from Police State except with more righteousness and the control is through "brain washing" rather than discipline / command. There may be no difference, it might be a case of "Profess your belief or get shot!".

Quality of life may be higher in a Fundie, if you discount the externality of war. I say MAY. There is no in game bonus to economic development. Everything about fundie screams stagnation of society

I think that your wrong in asserting that a Fundamentalist government highly biased towards spreading their ideology by force. In most circumstances, Fundamentalism is more of a defensive government than a Police State. Fundamentalism confers +2 Probe, +1 Morale, and -2 Research. Police State confers +2 Police, +2 Support, and -2 Efficiency.

Intrepreting this it appears that Fundamentalism instills more of a willingness in it's people to fight for their faction than other governments. Fundamentalist governments have soldiers that believe what they are fighting for is actually worth dying for. This type of government also decreases the success of spy missions against their faction, increases the success of spy missions against other factions, and lowers the chance that citizens will defect. I don't think Fundy governments achieve these results primarily through fear. I think fundy uses the power of persuation, along with intellectually well constructed ideological truths to underpin their society. A fundamentalist government also promotes a great deal of conformity on their faction. Outsiders will have a hard time remaining undetected, because they will miss some social cue, and their nonconformance will make them standout. It probably takes a lifetime of conforming before it looks natural. The spies that didn't standout would have a hard time finding traitors, because the traitors would not only have to not believe in their faction's ideology, but have the courage to do something about it. It's almost like a it requires double betrayal for Fundy turncoats. Also the same feelings of fighting the good fight for a just cause, encourage fundy spies to do whatever they must, including martyering themselves to achieve their mission. Since fundamentalist push acceptance of the ideological status quo on their people, it seems logical that this tends to quash people's natural inquisitiviness. Plus the few people who do question things as scientists probably have to prove things to a greater extent than scientists in other factions. Instead of just proving that The Call to Power might exist, they have to prove it almost certainly exists before members of their faction believe them.

Interpreting a Police State shows that it prepares more for a war than a Fundamentalist government because of its support bonus. Granted the government may simply field more former teams, but most likely some of that extra support is going to put more boots on the ground somehwere. The Police bonus demonstrates the only philosophy that underlies a police state, and that is might makes right. The government will force it's people to carry out its objectives. In most factions this simply means that more soliders are around to oppress the people. In a Spartan police state not only are more soldiers around the people are more willing to obey the Spartan security forces. Plus it also appears that a Spartan Police State will use more brutal methods than other factions (unless it's running free market or cybernetic). So if people don't obey Spartan troops on secuirty details probably have standing orders to use deadly force. Units equipped with Non-Leathal methods in a Police State (especially a Spartan police state) probably use a combination of riot gear/training along with better intelligence provided by governmental surviellence, frequent check points, no constitutional rights etc to achieve their improved results. This comes at a price which is efficiency. Some of the inefficiency most likely does come from corruption, some of it comes from cronyism, some of it comes from inept leaders getting promotions based on their loyalty instead of their ability. However, some of it comes from a lack of transparency in government, along with leaders having the ability to go against consensus. Common sense may tell 95% of the Hive that starting simultaneously opening a three front war against the Spartans, the Peacekeepers, and the Believers is a bad idea (in most but not all cases), but if Yang and his sycophants believe it's a good idea then it becomes Hive policy. Since the people have no feedback problems will go undected. Also if people don't believe in their government they may carry out its every wish (since they don't want to end up in a punishment sphere), but they will tend to do the least they can to satisfy their masters. Also eventually the government will need somebody watching the watchers.

It's really not that different from Police State except with more righteousness and the control is through "brain washing" rather than discipline / command. There may be no difference, it might be a case of "Profess your belief or get shot!".

Quality of life may be higher in a Fundie, if you discount the externality of war. I say MAY. There is no in game bonus to economic development. Everything about fundie screams stagnation of society.

I do think that Fundy society is far more stagnant than other societies, but I don't think that a fundy society shots every single dissenter. A Gaian Fundy government can't nerve staple it's population, and it can only use one military unit for police duties. A Spartan Democracy can nerve staple its people, along with using two military units for police duties. That doesn't imply the Gaians have to believe or off to the punishment sphere for them. It's probably more subtle than that. Fundy societies probably shun dissenters, they probably also engage them instead of arrest them. They ask why they don't believe, and then try to convert them back. They explain away their unhappiness with personality flaws instead of flaws in the ideology. This person doesn't have the right character to succeed, that's why they failed, instead of there is something wrong with what we believe. Eventually with enough pamphelts, prayers, arguments, shunning, guilt trips, etc the citizen will tend to fall back on the factional ideology instilled in them from birth.

One other thing to consider is that out of all of the governments, A democratic government most likely has the most respect for the rule of law. A police state will have probably have more laws, but the enforcement of those laws probably wouldn't be as evenly administered as in a democracy. If a base governor favored by the faction's leadership in a Police State murders a political rival there is probably a much lower chance of that individual facing a trial than in a democracy. Conversely there is also a much greater chance of a base governor that falls out of favor with the factional leadership facing a trial for made up charges than in a democracy. In a fundy government, ideology always trumphs law.

Just because a government is democratic also doesn't mean that it couldn't pass restrictive or harsh laws. A Gaian democracy may pass a ban on virtually all small arms, whereas a Spartan Police State may allow any citizen to carry military grade assault weapons. However, a Gaian citizen that says Deidre is a crazy planet worshipping witch almost certainly wouldn't disappear for saying that. A Spartan citizen on the other hand may rightfully critisize Santiago for not adequetly defending Assassin's Redoubt, and then have to face a secret trial on charges of treason.

Of course both PS and Fundie can pretty much be arbitrarily evil and it'd depend somewhat on the leader. Gaians for example probably have an "apologetic" police state, and a somewhat introverted fundamentalism. A Spartan Police State would be a truly brutal affair and I find something extremely unnerving about Morganite fundamentalism. And that's aside from the fact that Morgan is probably the best Fundamentalist in the game from a strict gameplay perspective

I don't see the factions running Fundamentalism as having one unified belief. Instead I think that each faction would have it's own version of beliefs to further. Here is what I think a fundy government in each faction would promote.

The Believers: Some quasi-christian, we are rightious Crusaders acting as the sword of God to smite down the unbelievers and establish a new kingdom of God on Chiron.

Spartans: God rewards helps those that helps themselves. The meek may inherit earth, but the strong will inherit Chiron.

Hive: Basically learn to suffer without complaining for the greater good of humaity.

Morganites: Some form of Social Darwinism, where god rewards his choosen ones and the rightious, and god punishes the wicked with economic failure.

Gaian: Some form of planet/nature worship. Something like look at the greatness of god in his creations, instead of worshipping Chiron as a god (as per the cult of planet).

Peacekeepers: I'm not too sure what a fundy U.N. would look like.

[Blake]

Fundie can be interrupted in one of two ways. Firstly, a Christian Fundamentalism, or secondly, elevating the ideology of the faction to the level where it is sacred. I tend to go with the latter somewhat more, making it more a form of extreme Nationalism than any particular belief in God.

So I tend to believe in the possibility of a "Godless fundamentalism" basically using the dictionary definition of "strict adherence to any set of basic ideas or principles".
Some fundamentalisms would also most definitely be religious in nature, definitely Believers and Cult, probably Gaians. Possibly Morgan and Drones. For other factions, it's more likely to be just whipping the population into a state of extreme zeal about the righteousness of their ideology.

That kind of zeal really is best leveraged into war, IMHO, especially since the zeal is often built up by making other ideologies look bad and thus the war becomes righteous.

In gameplay terms, if you run fundie, you're going to war. Period. It might be defensive but will usually be offensive. If you use fundie in peacetime you're a fool .
In gameplay terms, Police State is not nearly so clear cut. In gameplay terms I tend to think that Police State really is a lot more about supporting formers and city garrisons than going on an offensive. It's basically a way to neglect infrastructure like rec commons and to get by with a weaker industry, nothing more, nothing less. The PS society tends to be more impoverished.

I'm basically going to stand by my assertion that Fundie means war, while a Police State just means not such a nice place to live.

[Hydro]

Ohhh, this is getting interesting!

Thinking....thinking....


Hydro

[korn469]

Originally posted by Blake
So I tend to believe in the possibility of a "Godless fundamentalism" basically using the dictionary definition of "strict adherence to any set of basic ideas or principles".
Some fundamentalisms would also most definitely be religious in nature, definitely Believers and Cult, probably Gaians. Possibly Morgan and Drones. For other factions, it's more likely to be just whipping the population into a state of extreme zeal about the righteousness of their ideology.

I agree with this. I don't see a Fundy Yang promoting Islam.

That kind of zeal really is best leveraged into war, IMHO, especially since the zeal is often built up by making other ideologies look bad and thus the war becomes righteous.

In gameplay terms, if you run fundie, you're going to war. Period. It might be defensive but will usually be offensive. If you use fundie in peacetime you're a fool .
In gameplay terms, Police State is not nearly so clear cut. In gameplay terms I tend to think that Police State really is a lot more about supporting formers and city garrisons than going on an offensive. It's basically a way to neglect infrastructure like rec commons and to get by with a weaker industry, nothing more, nothing less. The PS society tends to be more impoverished.

I think that Fundy can be a good cold war government. In the most literal sense your faction is at peace with the other factions because nobody is actually shooting at each other. However, you're running probe team actions quite often, and need the increased probe bonus from Fundy. I could see a fundy Morgan using this against a UoP running knowledge. Lots of cash plus a high Probe rating going against a faction with an abysmal drone rating is one of the best uses of fundy that I can imagine.

[Darrell01]

PS anf Fundy

Here are two posts ( one , two ) kinda about this topic that I've posted on before.

I think thinking about Police State and Fundamentalism purely in those terms is not the only way these types of government could happen.

Police State is +2 support, +2 police, and -2 efficiency. Now this might happen in a democracy if the people vote on it and want to support more formers/garrisons and whatnot. So the energy cost to switch to PS might be the holotv advertising time dedicated to convincing the people to vote in that direction. The -2 efficiency (effectively -4 from a democracy) might be the continued cost of keeping the voters continueing to vote in this way. Another reason for the -2 efficiency would be the effect of turning the military/police into a social program where they retrain drones to become a technician for an automated factory. However to other factions, they might not like it either because it allows for higher military buildups and that just makes them uneasy and they need a pre-emptive strike to ensure that you are not powerful enough to completely take them over with sheer numbers.

A fundamentalist government is +2 Probe, -2 science, +1 morale. This can also be accomplished in a democracy. The people are voting for more information security because they have heard about the recent probe and recon attacks by whatever faction. Thus all over the faction, citizens are encouraged to encrypt their data, passwords and such to make sure no one is able to easily obtain the factional secrets. there is a -2 effective efficiency from a democracy, so again, like police state, this might be the continued cost of keeping the voters in line with the amped up information security. The -2 science might be the new tech research being split up so that no one or core group of people know all the information required to utilize the technology, making it harder for probe teams to gather all the information they need. Another reason is that all research, no matter what the moral cost, is not allowed. Research needs to be done in a certain way so it does little or no harm to whatever the faction idealises. The +1 moral might also be further training for military men so they can fight against worms or ther factions as well as a further sense of faction loyalty.

The story here is that police state and fundamentalism are just labels. If you love democracy so much and detest fundamentalism and police state, this is an alternate explanation for them.