How long since a "What faction would you join" thread???

[gwillybj]

Nabvrimn said:
The Xenobannannas are out because I think they taste disgusting.

Deirdre said:
Juicy, ripe grenade fruits may look appealing, but a mouthful of organonitrates will certainly change your mind in a hurry.

[korn469]

Well I voted for the hive, believer's, and the cult of planet.

Also I don't think that all drones represent the criminal element, malcontents, and violent plebs. I think anyone who disagrees with the faction's ideology is a drone. I consider both the anti war protesters in America, or the Orange revolution protesters in the Ukraine drones.

Hive: On the good side the state probably takes care of its citizens from birth to the recycling tanks. I'm sure this means that the basics (food, medical care, education)are freely available to all citizens. Literacy is probably high, and there may be state support of arts if somebody figured it would help the community's morale. Crime is probably low. On the bad side, the government is probably a police state since yang doesn't suffer from the inefficiency from running it. Also the hive probably used planned economics, so that mixed with the hive's -1 to economy means that luxury items are very few and far between. No retail stores full of consumer electronics, or the ability to buy happiness. Also dissenters probably disappear on a regular basis, as mentioned earlier families probably don't exist. The likelihood of getting drafted to go fight in a war is probably high.

Sparta: On the good side Sparta will probably provide safety for its citizens. Spartan survivalist ideas don't have to go against other ideas such as democracy, a free economy, or families. They could build a society similar to modern Israel, or the Swiss of the 20th century. Maybe a small professional armed force backed up by a militia of every citizen able to hold a gun. So it's possible to have an enlightened free society that maintains its neutrality in factional politics. The Spartans could recognize that life on Chiron is tough and are ready to fight (and defeat) anything that comes their way from gaian witches, to mindworms, to UoP killer robots, to greedy morgan raiders, to hordes of Yang's soldiers. However, I would say that 80% of the time or more the Spartans would go fascist and try to impose peace through war. Their natural police ability lends itself well to running police state, so add in power, and you have a high probability of dying in a front line unit for the glory of the federation. A police state/power sparta would also probably undermine the family by placing all children in creche platoons/brigades, and I'm sure it would focus everything towards the Spartan war machine. As long as the Federation was winning that probably wouldn't be a bad thing, but if it ever turned bad I'm sure it would be like the eastern fron in WW2.

Morgan: Probably shouldn't be a faction at all. If SMAC had came out AFTER Civ4:BtS introduces corporations to the franchise there could have been a new mechanism to represent Morgan Industries. Though on the good side Morgan will almost certainly run Free Market, and Democracy goes well with that, as does wealth or knowledge. Along with their natural economic bonuses there could be lots of wealth to spread around. As long as you're not an underpaid, exploited drone, you could probably buy the best life Chiron has to offer. Also since Morgan pays higher support costs probably very few (if any) people get drafted. Moreover, it's probably more profitable to trade with the other factions that to fight with them (though arming both sides of a war would be extra lucrative). I wouldn't see any reason for Morgan Industries to destroy families. Best case would be like working for a huge conglomeration headed by a competent leader (Berkshire-Hathaway/warren buffet) and owning stock in the company. There is so much wealth that even the people on the bottom have it better than most. Worst case scenario would be like a combination of China's current system with Omni Consumer Products from Robocop. So the corporation owns everything, everything has a profit motive (including law enforcement, prisons, roads, etc) and only a very small portion of the society control nearly all of the wealth, while poverty, exploitation, and an unfair system plagues everybody else.

The Peacekeepers: On the good side this faction has the strongest argument for being a meritocracy because of the extra talents. Also you don't have to worry about Lal running a police state, so dissent most likely doesn't get quashed in this faction the same way as it does in other factions. The PK's have a good probability of being fairly benign. There is probably a high amount of political correctness, quotas, and other well intended ideas to cut down on inequality, racism, hate speech, etc that contributes to the U.N. -1 efficiency. The U.N. seems like it would have a high chance of implementing a nanny state. For example, I bet the U.N. charter probably doesn't have any provisions for anybody except for the police or military to own firearms (or energy weapons). Yet it probably has ten that delineate freedom from discrimination. I think of the U.N. as being ideologically similar to the Federation in Star Trek mixed with some EU like qualities. However, Lal seems a bit self righteous, and wars with Spartan Federation, the Believers, or the Hive seem likely. So best case scenario would be a highly accountable democratic system, that respects the rule of law, has many constitutional guarantees, promotes the development of the individual, and tries to make Chiron a better place. Worst case scenario would be an unresponsive, overly bureaucratic democracy that presents little real choices in leaders to its citizens, with lots of regulations intended for the benefit of its people that have constrictive implementations. In some ways the U.N. could probably be as drab as the hive.

The Believers: This faction could either be pious well intentioned crusaders, or just a futuristic Al Qaeda. Best case scenario, is that Miriam is a peaceful, intelligent, scholarly cleric that resorts to violence only under dire circumstances. The Believers probably the best sense of community and family of all of the factions. This version is something like a armed camp of mennonites (even though that is an oxymoron). They scorn the worldly, decadent, non religious pleasures and diversions other factions engage in. They condemn the other factions, but still pray for them. Worst case scenario would be a Al Qaeda in Space. They would brutally enforce religious laws, condemn anything that deviates from their scriptures, and would feel like they are locked in an epic struggle of good and evil taking place on Chiron where they are the good guys and everybody else is the good infidel badguys.

Gaians: This faction also seem fairly benign in general. On the good side Deirdre will probably run democratic, and their faction weaknesses (police and morale) mean that their is a streak of civil disobedience and nonviolence present in their culture. A democratic Gaian society can only use one military unit to keep order, and they won't tolerate nerve stapling. Even a Gaian police state will only tolerate two military units (which is the same as a "normal" spartan federation), whereas the Spartan Federation running police state can use three military units that have double police effect quashing six drones to the Gaians two. Most likely though the Gaians will run democratic because it goes well with both planned or green. So a best case scenario would be peaceful, democratic, stewards of chiron. They try not to pollute, and to adapt themselves to the planet instead of vice verse. Worse case scenario would be a bunch of self righteous, overbearing planet loving hippies running a green police state. Basically if you polluted or varied from Dierdre's vision off to some type of psi re-education center you go. Also there is a good chance under best or worst case scenarios that unless the Gaians start near lots of fungus and native life that one of the other factions will come along and crush you. Yang, Santiago, Zakharov, and Miriam are all likely candidates.

Zakharov: On the good side living in this faction means you probably have access to some of the best technology and all of the conveniences it can bring. A democratic, green, knowledge based UoP wouldn't be too bad. Good technology, a free, open society, an economy that prevents the worst abuses/exploitation of the workers while staying on Planet's good side. Maybe Zakharov really is making life better through science. Plus once a new technology is ready to go I'm sure the UoP would embrace it. However, the increased drones are a good argument for a government that either doesn't stop abuses or actually encourages them. It could range from vioxx like coverups, to the tuskegee experiment, to full out Mengele like experiments. Every citizen of the UoP could potentially be a test subject. For example, Zakharov might order the infection of a certain city with a new virus they had created for biowar purposes to test the effectiveness of the virus. So a worst case scenario would be a scientist like the ones from day of the dead, alien resurrection, Frankenstein etc running your faction, and you might be the next victim of a new experiment.

[CEO Aaron]

Originally posted by korn469
Hive: On the good side the state probably takes care of its citizens from birth to the recycling tanks.

I think this depends on what your ideas of care are. Yang's neo-buddist attitudes towards pleasure and pain seem to indicate that he considers mere physical discomfort and deprivation to be illusions of consciousness to be overcome. If that's the case, why should be divert his precious limited resources on non problems that only exist in the heads of his hapless lackeys?

I'm sure this means that the basics (food, medical care, education)are freely available to all citizens.

As long as you emphasise the basic in basic. I don't see much in the way of advanced education or medical care, to say nothing of high quality food coming out of Yang's production apparatus, given the weak nature of his economy, and his minimalist attitudes.

Literacy is probably high

On what basis do you make that claim? I really doubt that the Hive oppression machine would be interested in those members of the faction that would be relegated to the less pleasant duties that needed to be carried out for the benefit of the collective. If they don't need to be literate to carry out their duties, giving them the tools to learn would only prove a distraction from their function. Remember, this is the Yang who came up with the Genejack, a lobotomized halfman whose only function is to work.

and there may be state support of arts if somebody figured it would help the community's morale.

Are we talking about the same Yang? Morale starts and ends in the mind, according to Yang. Spending resources on improving people's mood doesn't sound much like the Hive at all.

Crime is probably low.

Well, I think that depends on the type of crime. Blue collar crime such as petty theft, smuggling, racketeering, etc, would probably not flourish under the omnipresent eye of Yang's jackbooted thugs, but corruption in the more privileged circles would certainly be common, as Yang's lack of efficiency would offer enterprising and unscrupulous officials many opportunities for graft.

On the bad side, the government is probably a police state since yang doesn't suffer from the inefficiency from running it.

PROBABLY a Police State? The Hive has police state stamped on its forehead and tattooed on its heart. And its only other option is a Fundamentalism, hardly a bastion of freedom and opportunity either.

dissenters probably disappear on a regular basis, as mentioned earlier families probably don't exist. The likelihood of getting drafted to go fight in a war is probably high.

You better believe it. Yang is on a blood drenched crusade to unify Humanity under his 'enlightened' leadership, and woebetide anyone who stands in his way. Or, for that matter, anyone who happens to be stuck working for him.

My take on the Hive is it's Mao's China meets Big Brother, the totalitarian regime from Orwell's 1984. It's pretty much every chilling dysutopian madhouse ever written about rolled into one, with some very chilling pseudo-enlightened philosophy justifying brutal oppression.

Sorry, I just couldn't resist a fun little bout of Yang bashing. Anyone seen Franky Chan lately?

[CEO Aaron]

PS: I still can't believe more people would rather get turned into Cyborgs (Joining the Minions Aki-Zeta-5) than go to work for Morgan Industries. I mean, I hate corporate politics too, but DAMN.

[Chaos Theory]

You mean you'd rather work long hours for (probably) good pay and have an ordinary life, if luxurious by Planetary standards, than literally improve yourself and experience things no one else has experienced before, with the ability to form virtual environments and mostly escape the harshness of Planet etc etc? Both would be acceptable, but I know I'd rather have the latter.

[korn469]

CEO Aaron

I believe that every faction could have a best case version and a worst case version. Some lean more or to one version or the other. I fully believe that your take on the Hive is very consistent with the worst case version. What if Yang's leadership actually was enlightened?

I think that the original population of each faction represents some of the best and brightest from earth. If they weren't they wouldn't have made it on the Unity. The Hive originally has a population made up of people who believe in Yang's vision or leadership or both. Otherwise they would have picked a different faction.

Having said that here are what I think the odds of are for each faction on going with the best or worst version. Also I'm giving both version of the faction a score (on a 100 point scale) of how fulfilling life is for drones, normal contented citizens, and talents, everybody but the senior leadership group of each faction averaged together. This includes access to education, health care, government services, personal liberties, economic opportunities, spiritual fulfillment, chance for personal growth, social mobility, etc.

Hive
Best 1% Worst 99%
Average Quality of life
Best 55 (+Hive actively anticipates and provides for every need -lack of available resources)
Worst 1 (+shared sacrifice for the greater good, -individuals are a renewable resource for the advancement of the hive)

Spartan Federation
Best 8% Worst 92%
Average Quality of life:
Best 65 (+great respect for the individual -large amounts of resources dedicated to defense
Worst 20 (+opportunity for advancement in the ranks, -continuous warfare)

Morgan Industries
Best 34%% Worst 66%
Average Quality of Life
Best 90 (+can buy a wonderful life, -materialism can't fulfill every need)
Worst 15 (+the rich have wonderful lives, -poor workers face extreme exploitation)

Peace Keepers
Best 60% Worst 40%
Average Quality of Life
Best 75 (+most reach their full potential, -lack of resources to let everyone achieve everything)
Worst 40 (+the state provides for all, -the state is inflexible, stupid, corrupt, and stifling)

Believer's
Best 6% Worst 94%
Average Quality of life
Best 60 (+people find true happiness in their community, -many people have other views that aren't compatible with this faction's belief's)
Worst 10 (+fighting for a higher calling, -religious wars take their toll on society)

Gaian's
Best 52% Worst 48%
Average Quality of life
Best 80 (+freedom loving society, -scorns material possessions)
Worst 45 (+lives in harmony with planet, -ecological fanaticism skews society)

UoP
Best 15% Worst 85%
Average Quality of life
Best 85 (+technology improves the human condition, -progress out paces ethics)
Worst 20 (+technology appeases the masses, -human experimentation)

[Hydro]

Korn,

Nice summary. To take it a step further, here are the SE’s I see with each best and worst case for the well being of each faction. Each assumes that the favored SE is selected in both:

Hive worst case: police, planned, power
Hive best case: planned police state, wealth (note – little difference between best and worst case)

Spartan worst case: police, planned, power
Spartan best case: democracy, FM, power

Morgan worst case: police, FM, wealth
Morgan best case: democracy, FM, wealth

PKs worst case: democracy, planned, power
PK best case: democracy, green, wealth

Believer worst case: Fundamentalism, planned, power
Believer best case: Fundamentalism, green, wealth

Gaian worst case: police, green, power
Gaian best case: democracy, green, wealth

UoP worst case: police, planned, knowledge
UoP best case: democracy, green, knowledge

In all of these SE evaluation the assumption is that police state is repressive, power indicates wars and bloodshed, and production without respect to inefficiency. The alternatives are more socially enlightened (democracy) with an emphasis on personal well being (wealth) and efficiency (green).

Hydro

[korn469]

Originally posted by Hydro
Korn,

Nice summary. To take it a step further, here are the SE’s I see with each best and worst case for the well being of each faction. Each assumes that the favored SE is selected in both:

Hive worst case: police, planned, power
Hive best case: planned police state, wealth (note – little difference between best and worst case)

Spartan worst case: police, planned, power
Spartan best case: democracy, FM, power

Morgan worst case: police, FM, wealth
Morgan best case: democracy, FM, wealth

PKs worst case: democracy, planned, power
PK best case: democracy, green, wealth

Believer worst case: Fundamentalism, planned, power
Believer best case: Fundamentalism, green, wealth

Gaian worst case: police, green, power
Gaian best case: democracy, green, wealth

UoP worst case: police, planned, knowledge
UoP best case: democracy, green, knowledge

In all of these SE evaluation the assumption is that police state is repressive, power indicates wars and bloodshed, and production without respect to inefficiency. The alternatives are more socially enlightened (democracy) with an emphasis on personal well being (wealth) and efficiency (green).

Hydro

Hydro,

Nice! using your same guides here's my best and worst SE choices for each of the SMAC factions.

Hive worst case: police, planned, power
Hive best case: police, planned, wealth

Spartan worst case: police, FM, power
Spartan best case: democracy, green, power

Morgan worst case: police, FM, wealth
Morgan best case: democracy, FM, wealth

PKs worst case: democracy, planned, power
PK best case: democracy, planned, knowledge

Believer worst case: Fundamentalism, planned, power
Believer best case: Fundamentalism, green, wealth

Gaian worst case: police, green, power
Gaian best case: democracy, green, knowledge

UoP worst case: police, FM, knowledge
UoP best case: democracy, green, knowledge

[Darrell01]

I wouldn't give the Peacekeepers as high a chance for best case scenario at all. It is true, the Peacekeepers attract Talents. However Lal does not have to make a recreation commons now because there is an elite citizen countering the complaints of some other citizen. In my view the Peacekeepers have a big elitest system in the game. I'd give it a 20% / 80% rating minimally. At least everyone else has to deal with thier malcontent citizens and doesn't get a free pass to ignore them.

PS - Hey CEO Aaron, I voted for the wrong factions due to the title of the thread and some other people have as well. I wouldn't trust this poll at all.

[CEO Aaron]

Oh, yeah, I hadn't thought of that. Good point.

[Frankychan]

Originally posted by Darrell01
I must remember that all these factions are based on an ideal. Each faction ideology is run by someone who wants the best for their people. Yes, even Yang in the Hive. Using Yang as an example, perhaps he has posters of himself all over the tunnels and such. However, today, leaders who do this are old fat men who want to be portrayed as some heroic figure. Yang *is* a heroic figure if you read the story line. Yang is trying to accomplish a Hive paradise where through the early struggles and hard work, there is delayed gratification about 200 to 300 years down the line where he is able to take the Hive to trancendence. All the early suffering and such will pay off in the end. He's not actually torturing his subjects, he is focusing their efforts to the big goal. He does not know how to generate and manage new energy, but he does know how to take what is there and not lose it in typically extremely wasteful government structures. Because he doesn't have new energy, he has to resort to the sword to keep drones in line where Morgan will entertain them with some shiny screen, a waste of time and energy in Yang's eyes. Each faction is represented in an ideal form where the people agree with how it is working. People will say that ang is a brutal dictator, but that is because of the history from what happened on Earth. On Planet, all Yang's followers tend to agree wiith him, as all of Diedre's followers believe in her. And perhaps the drones in Yang's Hive are not causing a ruckus because they do not like being there. They may be causing a ruckus because they want there to be more impact laser rover parades to give them a sense of security from outside threats. So to Yang's drones, they like having extra units in the base as opposed to not being foolishly entertained or harshly quelled like everywhere else. Sometimes it can be hard to put myself into another person's shoes who actually believes in the (in my view, bad) government over them. However all the factions are run in their ideal form and they all strive for how things ought to be, not how things are.

When I grow up, I want to be Darrell01

[Darrell01]

Well, I do appreciate the compliment.

[Nabvrimn]

Originally posted by Hydro
Korn,

Nice summary. To take it a step further, here are the SE’s I see with each best and worst case for the well being of each faction. Each assumes that the favored SE is selected in both:

I'm not sure that's a valid assumption. It certainly isn't the way a human would necessarily play most of them.

Hive worst case: police, planned, power
Hive best case: planned police state, wealth (note – little difference between best and worst case)

Spartan worst case: police, planned, power
Spartan best case: democracy, FM, power

Morgan worst case: police, FM, wealth
Morgan best case: democracy, FM, wealth

[snip}

Believer worst case: Fundamentalism, planned, power
Believer best case: Fundamentalism, green, wealth

[snip]

In all of these SE evaluation the assumption is that police state is repressive, power indicates wars and bloodshed, and production without respect to inefficiency. The alternatives are more socially enlightened (democracy) with an emphasis on personal well being (wealth) and efficiency (green).

Hydro

For Spartans I tend to prefer knowledge unless I have the vats. The industry malus from power hurts Sparta more than anyone else giving them a 22% reduction of industrial power instead of a 20% reduction. (or a 18% reduction for Yang or mere 17% for Domai.) Sparta should, therefore, never use power. Even survival is better. I tend to personally go for demo/planned/knowledge.

For Morgan FM is a waste once wealth is available because he can get the critical +2 econ without it and I tend to go dem/green/wealth for the extra efficiency. By its nature aas a corporation that spawned a state I don't think any economic system other than planned is structurally possible no matter how they might give lip service to capitalism. This faction is conceptually broken can't be described in "reality" as a function of its SE choices in the economics category.

For the Believers I'd again be inclined to try to offset the disadvantages as much as possible at least when at peace and do dem/fm/wealth to try to get as much econ as possible to offset the research difficulties and incidentally build up energy reserves to probe people next time I'm at war.

The others of the original seven I'd expect to use their preferres SEs most of the time.

By Hydro's standards my Santiago is "more enlightened" than his best case and my Miriam far "more enlightened". For Sparta at least I'm pretty sure my take is more effective as well.

[Hydro]

Nabvrimn

You are probably correct that a human wouldn't play them this way, but it is how the AI plays the faction (in general) and how it reacts to other factions. In other words, it is how they were designed - right or wrong.

Spartans and Power - I'm not sure I agree that the Spartans should never take Power. Never is a strong word. With Power and CN or a number of CCs you can fairly easily get elite infantry and rovers, which are a wonderful and a nasty surprise to the fat Builders out there. In SMAC, the extra move for almost any units is huge. You can also go Power after your military is built to give you an extra bump.

Morgan and FM - early I like FM and wealth for the sheer, raw energy that blows away the other factions when bases are small and early game to early mid game. Pop booming is a little difficult for Morgan, and the energy can give you a nice boost to get to GA. Even in mid game it is useful to mini-max energy production smaller bases. Later with huge bases, crawlers, and energy farms the extra raw energy and commerce income starts to decrease wrt efficiency in a sprawling empire.

Believers - I'll take your word on Believers. I've never played them (!!!!).

Hydro

[CEO Aaron]

For Morgan FM is a waste once wealth is available because he can get the critical +2 econ without it

Sorry, but that's just not true. Free Market is HUGE for morgan, especially in the early game when normal resource harvesting is capped everywhere but the base square. In addition, the extra bumps in commerce rate also help Morgan rake in the energy, as long as he has trading partners. The bottom line is that Free Market can remain Morgan's strongest SE choice until quite late in the game, when advanced terraforming and satellite income begins to dwarf the commerce and base square energy bonuses of FM. At that point, the efficiency of Green DOES begin to supplant Free Market, but we're talking about well past Advanced Spaceflight here, not just the moment you grab Industrial Automation.

I tend to go dem/green/wealth for the extra efficiency.

Have you tried running Fundy/Green/Wealth for Morgan in wartime? It's really an amazingly effective combo as you still retain the +2 econ bonus, and with creches in your troop-building bases, negate ALL the drawbacks of Wealth's morale hit.

I don't think any economic system other than planned is structurally possible no matter how they might give lip service to capitalism.

Just because the corporations are deeply involved with the government doesn't mean they'll disregard free market principles. The argument that a corporate government must by definition produce a planned economy doesn't hold up, imo. The difference doesn't have to do with who's making the decisions, but rather what decisions are being made. A planned economy will make extensive use of quotas, guaranteed if not even compulsory jobs for the labor force, and have industrial output directed towards the state's heavy industry and growth goals. Conversely, a Free Market corporate state doesn't mandate who works what jobs, they let market forces judge the wage offered for the jobs that are in the most demand. They don't order production goals based on what the leaders believe what's most needed, they base it on what's most likely to sell at a profit. My point here is while Yang's cranking out his 5 year plan to ramp up plasma steel production, Morgan's still going to be diverting resources to making Holo theatre shows and operating casinos, for no better reason than that they're profitable.

Sparta should, therefore, never use power.

This is CLINICALLY true. Until you're in posession of the Cloning Vats, power is the most crippling SE choice available, regardless of faction. Knowledge is really Sparta's only refuge, since they're unable to run Wealth.