Demogame proposal: start on the Unity

[sir_schwick]

Our society will only survive if it is classless. That means we cannot vest great powers over certain institutions to specialized technocratic, theocratic, authoritarian, or militant castes. Also environmental sustainability and eventually harmony are necessary to our survival. Eventually truly democratic solutions would be ideal in this regard, but at this moment they are unattainable. Instead our primary concern should be eliminating the accumulation of power and role into specific castes and functions.

(Translation: + on Planet(Environmental) , - on Industry(anti-centralized sentiment), - on Police(desire to prevent specific policing caste), + on Efficiency(lack of bureaucracy), Preference for Democracy, Aversion to Power)

[Heraclitus]

I wish to point out somethin lack of bureaucracy does not automaticaly mean a more efficent system of goverment. In fact the first countries to employ them where very efficent. It is just a matter of updating the rules and ensureing that there are not too many of them.


Also may I ask you this, wouldn't such a decentralised state be a decentralised colation of city states?



Also why is envrionmentalism soo important on this new alien planet? Remebmer there are barley 10000 of us. Old Earth could support a million or so people living with inefficent stone age technology. Our technology is much better and more efficient and causes less ecological damage. In many way's Earth's problem was that we had too large a population. We had the technology to ecologicaly friendly support a billion or so people.



And lastly you say that ould idelogies won't help us yet you endorse a representative democracy as your system. If we follow your plan we would end up like the EU just supposedly without the beurocracy.

[sir_schwick]

*looking over the planet scans from the satellite probes*

I would say something closer to what the anarchists had in Catalonia. Also we cannot even begin to think of a state of multiple colonies with our paltry population and transportation infrastructure. However you are correct that most likely the only way to keep a ruling caste from emerging would involve at most a coalition of autonomous city-states.

Environmentalism is more than just a way to reduce the ecological footprint of a population. It is a way for a society to view and interact with its environment. It is also reflective of other social values and influences them. The authoritarian and wasteful attitudes of golden age societies could plainly be seen in how they interacted with the environment. Even in the early industrial revolution, when the ecological footprint was insignificant, the negative effects of these attitudes could be seen manifesting in other destructive manners.

The people of those societies also suffered as they lost direct connections to the source of all their daily consumption. A people so loosely attached will soon lose grip on many parts of their reality. Quickly an entire society starts developing institutions that are based on incorrect ideas about how products get form the ground to their homes.

*shows an area of the scan*

Look at that. So anyway...environmentalism is important as a tool to prevent future generations that do have an ecological footprint from blundering as we have. It was not just an issue of population, although human population was far beyond the support limit of the Earth alone. Had space technology proliferated on a scale practical to more than just government space agencies....

*stares off into space*

Vyeh: Then what?

Heraclitus: You are spacing out on us again.

Sorry. *pauses for a moment* Discussion and plans from the late 20th century detailed the possibility of transferring a large amount of the Earth's power generation into space. Most of the plans involved collecting solar energy with a variety of close and long Earth orbits then beaming them directly to receiver stations on the surface. Some even utilized just focusing large areas in orbit into smaller areas on the surface for heat based solar stacks. The technology and infrastructure necessary for these kind of efforts could have been completed by the early 2010s.

Further developments and ideas came into existence throughout our final century that would have transferred the worst of the polluting industries and human activities off the surface of Earth. However space was never developed outside of government projects and a few defense contractor ventures. The infrastructure was never developed and most of the resources instead wasted on useless wars. But yeah, I got off topic there. What point were we at last?


(I wanted the efficiency bonus to cancel out the other negative bonuses. What else would be good?)

[Heraclitus]

What if a faction hoarded some of the more specialised equipment? (free areospace complex) We could start launching satelites mere decades after planetfall? Sure we would have to sacrifice effieciency and industry but I think it might be worth it...

[vyeh]

Look at the power rating formula for custom factions at

http://alphacentauri.us/fac-tool/rate.htm

Notice that six of the SMAC 7 factions have a power rating of 5 or 6.

[sir_schwick]

Even by hoarding all the equipment, we would still have to account for producing our own fuel. Such infrastructure will probably take many decades for even the fastest growing colonies to put up a single satellite. The idea was practical on Earth, but will not be on Chiron for at least a century. However doing incremental planning on such a proposal over time until such infrastructure arises would be wise.

Speaking of research, I know Dr. Zhakarov has been considering taking one of the landing pods for himself since Garland's assassination. However many of the scientists on board do not like his lack of ethical constraints. We could probably convince them to join our cause.

(Instead of a Efficiency+, we could do a Research+)

Vyeh: The person here suggesting we recruit former technocrats is You??!!

These would be the ethical scientists who would probably agree with our desires to develop technology in an egalitarian manner.

[Mart]

Originally posted by vyeh
Look at the power rating formula for custom factions at

http://alphacentauri.us/fac-tool/rate.htm

Notice that six of the SMAC 7 factions have a power rating of 5 or 6.

I took a look at it, and I think this could use some revisions. The smax factions power seems overestimated for me.

[Hydro]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
All the fools would have needed to do was recycle a bit, drive electric cars and use nuclear power for all their electricity needs, while spending more resources on the research of fusion power.

Speaking of the enviroment, the Gaians seem interesting. For now they seem normal greens, but I have a bad feeling they will just degenerate into a pseudo-pagan cult when they land on Chiron.

Interesting thread.

But, be careful what you wish for. As a thought experiment, if Fusion power were truly the answer to all of our energy problems and if it were fully implemented by the 6B+ people on Earth then we'd quickly start pumping out so much waste heat into the biosphere we may get a new set of horrors.

The pseudo pagen cult of Gaians are the Cult of Planet (ecoterrorists). The Gaians are pacifists, and I always viewed them more as eco minded researchers that also liked to munch granola. Now, to literal Morganites or University the Gaians would seem to be irrational Planet worshiping hippies (or they would until the Voice corrected this assessment).

Hydro

[vyeh]

Originally posted by Hydro
But, be careful what you wish for. As a thought experiment, if Fusion power were truly the answer to all of our energy problems and if it were fully implemented by the 6B+ people on Earth then we'd quickly start pumping out so much waste heat into the biosphere we may get a new set of horrors.

How much waste heat is generated by fossil fuel plants that would be replaced by fusion power?

Even with the perfect heat engine between a heat source and a heat sink, some of the energy becomes heat (rather than mechanical energy or electrical energy). Of course, after the mechanical energy is used to move a ship or the electrical energy is used to light a building, all of that energy becomes heat.

So the questions become:

(1) Is fusion energy more inefficient (produces more waste heat per usable energy) then the fossil fuel energy it replaces?

(2) If fusion energy is cheaper and more available than fossil fuel energy, how much more energy will the 6B+ people use?

[Hydro]

The real question is that if we get relatively cheap and available energy from fusion, to what degree will usage increase. For instance, imagine (continuing the thought experiment) that fusion power allows the entire world to have a lifestyle similar to that of the USA, Europe, and Japan. That is a lot of energy, and even if it is more efficient the orders of magnitude increase in usage will result in more waste heat.

Moreover, waste heat is not just in the generation; it is in the use. Such electricity would be used for light (some waste heat), heating (obviously, waste heat), manufacturing, transportation...you get the picture. From start to end there is heat generated, so the key is usage.

An interesting SF series by Peter Hamilton (Reality Dysfunction) explored this idea. There was lots of speculation, but it was more than interesting.

Hydro

[sir_schwick]

A human civilization that has mastered such efficient use of energy would also master the techniques to utilize that energy out in space. The failure to do so will lead to similar fate that Earth experienced.

[Hydro]

The counter argument is that the wisdom to use a technology wisely generally (always?) lags the ability to use it.

How often have we seen short term interest win over long term gain?

Or petty greed win over prudence?

Or plain 'ol ignorance prevailing over a more balanced and thoughtful view?

Or an ideology making an individual or group unable, unwilling, or incapable of adjusting to a new technology or situation?

Boy, that was a downer. I'll go hide under a rock.

Hydro

[Heraclitus]

Yes but despite all of that, despite humanity being the same greedy squabblind stupid and ignorant people.

We now live longer that we ever had, we understand more about the unvierse, some succesfull societies have managed to do away with capital punishment, more people live on this planet than ever in our history, smallpox has been eradicated, we have traveled to the Mooon, and for the last 50 years we have abstained from blowing this planet up.


Knowledge is power. It gives man tools for good or ill. And unlitmatley the real question is not whether we wish technology to progress, but whether humans are selfdestructive or not.

[vyeh]

On Planet, the more minerals produced, the greater the eco-damage.

While there is eco-damage associated with solar collectors (which disappears with Tree Farms and Hybrid Forests), eco-damage does not increase with increasing energy production.

Planet doesn't seem to mind climate warming!