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Demogame proposal: start on the Unity

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  • #16
    Hmm ...

    I hear good points for both ecology and technology. Perhaps, somewhere in between Deidre and Zak is the answer.
    Unofficial SMAC/X Patches Version 1.0 @ Civilization Gaming Network

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    • #17
      True, well both have the potential. Zak could always adopt a green economy and Deirdred is the ships Xenobilogist, unless she finds something really odd on Chiron she will stay pretty scientific.

      But the thing is, we don't know what surprises Chiron will hold (I think random settings for native life, humidity, rockines and land-sea ratio would be a good idea, size should be determined).


      Yang has interesting ideas, cut individual consumption, strict control of citizens, isolation. I hate to say it but the main problem of Earth weren't ecological they were sociological. The goverments and social structures that existed were not willing to embrace change. We clung to the tribal mentality for far to long.


      Yang takes internal dissent and external threat out of the equation. Long term survival of the human race would be in much safer in the hands of the Human Hive than with the Spartan big giant gun fans.
      Last edited by Heraclitus; April 9, 2008, 16:28.
      Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
      The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
      The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Demogame proposal: start on the Unity

        Originally posted by vyeh
        * create a faction based on the discussion and balanced with the original 7 SMAC factions
        We can create a faction ourselves. We choose which attributes to change and then CMN might substitute a chosen faction file. That faction might be the closest to what our ideology would be. We can do it since factional parameters are stored in the save file - no need to modify anything afterwards, although some description files might be useful when updated. We could do it via scenario mechanism. I have some experience with it.
        * create a game, making all the rule choices
        We would need a CMN for creating the map that none of the players would know.
        Mart
        Map creation contest
        WPC SMAC(X) Democracy Game - Morganities aspire to dominate Planet

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        • #19
          Re: Re: Demogame proposal: start on the Unity

          Originally posted by Mart

          We can create a faction ourselves. We choose which attributes to change and then CMN might substitute a chosen faction file. That faction might be the closest to what our ideology would be. We can do it since factional parameters are stored in the save file - no need to modify anything afterwards, although some description files might be useful when updated. We could do it via scenario mechanism. I have some experience with it.
          Most of the disscusion so far was concerning what our faction will be like. But we must remember that it must be balanced with the original 7.



          BTW Is this a SMAC or SMAX game?
          Last edited by Heraclitus; April 9, 2008, 19:27.
          Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
          The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
          The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

          Comment


          • #20
            Let everyone declare his/her preference.

            smax or smac in my case - I have both
            Mart
            Map creation contest
            WPC SMAC(X) Democracy Game - Morganities aspire to dominate Planet

            Comment


            • #21
              SMAC
              Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
              The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
              The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

              Comment


              • #22
                /The physicist who was the first to eat his meal, not even bothering to leave the rec area, started doing some some rather important calculations for his boss Zak. He was completley absorbed by his work untill he abruptly stopped, clearly after getting a rather interesting idea that deserved some thought. He stared at the wall seming like in a trance. After a few seconds he looked up at the rest and said/:

                Hey what do you guys think of Democratic Transhumanism?

                /Very quickly almost apologetically, but clearly enthusiastic he continued/:

                Sure it failed as a concept back on old Earth, but this was because of the extreme stratification of the society. Why not build a faction around the concept of transcending human limitations via technology? How do other species avoid extinction?

                /looks around expecting an answer, after a second he continues/:

                They don't, but they do evolve into something else.

                I do admit the idea could be foolish. I mean even with centuries of development where are you going to find enough resources to upload the sum total of human knowledge let alone every living person into a massive parallel computer of some kind? And nothing like that will be waiting for us on Chiron.

                But bettering ourselves via technology & ethics and having something like that as a ultimate goal, might go a far way to convincing someone like me to join. Make the colonial government try to ensure that the lower classes don't fall to far behind in the gene therapy & cyber enhancement race. A democracy in such a society would have some serious flaws, but it would be a very good example of it, if we are perfectly accurate it would be similar to a republic, or because of the dedication to communication an ancient city-state republic perhaps something like ancient Athens.

                Sure governing in that fashion might be hard, similar to how every citizen could shout his opinion in the forums of ancient times.



                Heh, such a bunch might even start calling themselves "the Athenians".
                Last edited by Heraclitus; April 10, 2008, 06:17.
                Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
                The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
                The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Mart
                  Let everyone declare his/her preference.

                  smax or smac
                  I have both.
                  Unofficial SMAC/X Patches Version 1.0 @ Civilization Gaming Network

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    The Athenians? Your conceptualization is as fantastic and mythological as the Greek Pantheon. Athens, even in the day s of Pericles, was ruled by a minority 'freeman' oligarchy.

                    Also, the welfare state on Earth was a spectacular failure. By destroying both its citizens right to decide their own destiny and failing to provide for all the needs of the citizenry, the welfare state would never achieve the popular support needed to continue its existence.

                    Any classed system is doomed to turbulence and violence because the under class will always be denied some set of property. In the case of the welfare state it was self-determination and achievement; the corporatist state failed in providing spiritual fulfillment and self-identity;and the religious state in providing truth and physical fulfillment. Capitalism was doomed from the start because of the lack of capital owned by the proletariat. Building a self-sustaining society cannot involve class differentiation at any step of its foundation. It requires radical thoughts on the nature of production, purpose of authority, and role of technology.


                    Out of Character:
                    I think we should also balance the antithesis faction for whatever faction we annex for this custom faction. If we create a hybrid, we may have to delve into those trees as well.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by sir_schwick
                      The Athenians? Your conceptualization is as fantastic and mythological as the Greek Pantheon. Athens, even in the day s of Pericles, was ruled by a minority 'freeman' oligarchy.
                      The "flaws" I was refering to, since no matter what you do eventually an oligarchy of the most capable will come into existance and a sizeable population of the non-enhanced who will be virtually slaves to the enhanced. Since only the enhanced have acces to governing information network. So you see the name is rather well chosen. In any case some of the names the factions have adopted are just as silly.

                      Originally posted by sir_schwick


                      Also, the welfare state on Earth was a spectacular failure. By destroying both its citizens right to decide their own destiny and failing t

                      o provide for all the needs of the citizenry, the welfare state would never achieve the popular support needed to continue its existence.
                      Its not realy a welfare state. It only obliges the state to allow the acheivers of the non-enhanced class to get good enhancements thus allowing at least some social mobility. I said nothing of health care or made any references to the old concept of Social Democracy. It is only just enough so to prevent civil war. Because otherwise advanced technology won't bring about the evolution of mankind but its fracturing into dozens of differnet races that will be constantly at war untill the more advanced prevail or the less advance ban all enhancement technology.

                      Originally posted by sir_schwick

                      Any classed system is doomed to turbulence and violence because the under class will always be denied some set of property. In the case of the welfare state it was self-determination and achievement; the corporatist state failed in providing spiritual fulfillment and self-identity;and the religious state in providing truth and physical fulfillment. Capitalism was doomed from the start because of the lack of capital owned by the proletariat. Building a self-sustaining society cannot involve class differentiation at any step of its foundation. It requires radical thoughts on the nature of production, purpose of authority, and role of technology.
                      Long live the USSA right? I hate to say this but you do know the fundies won the war? In any case all societies on Chiron will esentially be a class societies. All will have their talents and drones. The only exception I see is Yang's collectivist "paradise". A class-less system is an impossiblity. My proposal at least takes into account the effect that technolgy will probably cement the distinctions and tries to remedy this by limiting the excesses of the ultra-rich in favor of a middle class of some sort.
                      Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
                      The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
                      The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        * Trying to interrupt a spirited debate

                        A direct democracy through greater IT? Might work and it might get closer than the Athenians.

                        Unlike the Athenians, we have machines which are much more effective than slaves ...

                        * The spirited debate continues, drowning out the next words
                        Unofficial SMAC/X Patches Version 1.0 @ Civilization Gaming Network

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          The communism experiment of the USSR combined into the worst forms of corporatism and the welfare state. A new ruling class of overseers to distribute production and goods was created. They failed to eliminate the ultra-wealthy bourgeois class, instead making them stewards of the means of production for the state.

                          Allowing the rise of an ultra-rich class is what led to the centuries of class warfare and constant revolutions of Earth. I agree that ethically new technology should be implemented in an egalitarian manner. However such equality already has a foundation on this mission.

                          On this ship every man and woman has equal access to the resources available. Most decisions are made through a series of consensus'. If you are in a group who consistently disagrees with you, the option exists to move to a different group. That is part of the reason that such polarized camps have started to emerge. It is a plural and equal system that does not sacrifice access to the means of production or prosperity.

                          The question is not what technology can create an equal society, but what technology will destroy it. This is not a Luddite argument but rather one for priorities. A society that is truly equal will have no option but to integrate new technology with similar principles. My point is that any society that has potential for class differentiation will likely develop that difference.

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                          • #28
                            I agree with you for the most part. But I think the proper answer is a form of democratic transhumanism. A people friendly cybernetic society seems in my opinion better suited to limiting the fallout from human enhancing technology. It would provide the alternative the the bureaucratic c state Lal envisions.

                            I mean imagine what kind of a country the Morganites might have. Not only would the rich be able to buy beauty as they have been able to for a century, they will be able to buy intelligence, heck maybe even clinical immortality! I think no other faction addresses the eventual problem of how the transcendent and thinkers interact with the rest of society. Will they be its brightest, most ethical and best minds? Or will they become an oppressive class which will view the unaltered humans as slaves or even cattle?


                            I believe we a faction dedicated to reaching such transcendence first, and ensuring that the rest of mankind reaps the benefits is in order.


                            Sure there is the potential that by trying to pursue such changes in society may become the first to be currupted by it, resulting in a more instable state (negative police rating). The many open networks nods would also be venerable to espionage but not quite as much as the academic nets proposed by Zakharov. The freedom the people would enjoy would surely help the economy, either directly or through trade and scientific endevaours. There would be a loss of productivity that would be present because of near universal participation in governed and it would be hard to enforce order in case riots did break out. The economical advantage might be a bit optimistic, but its hard to say whiter the economy will be burdened by the need to share advanced technology with a larger portion of the population or if this will manifest itself in even lower production. Prototypes would in any case be nearly standard and would cost little additional resources.


                            I suppose its greatest enemy would be a faction that pursues power, since such a society would be its anti-thesis. Perhaps even the aptly named Spartans?
                            Last edited by Heraclitus; April 10, 2008, 10:08.
                            Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
                            The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
                            The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              True trans humanism has to include transcending the environment as well. A divine entity in the material world is still only an angel and not a god. And let us not forget that Earth technocrats self-deifying attitudes helped create the genetic and environmental mess that led to the final conflicts. All this emphasis on technology as the saving grace of humanity will lead to similar disasters on Chiron.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by sir_schwick
                                A divine entity in the material world is still only an angel and not a god.
                                We must dissent.

                                Originally posted by sir_schwick
                                And let us not forget that Earth technocrats self-deifying attitudes helped create the genetic and environmental mess that led to the final conflicts.
                                Really? I would say this to be more true of the plutocrats, funndamentalists and powercrazy militarists. Yet we have plently of thos on borad.

                                Originally posted by sir_schwick
                                All this emphasis on technology as the saving grace of humanity will lead to similar disasters on Chiron.
                                You don't know what we will find there! For all you know a technology might be all that saves us from the hands of some kind of awakening "alien God" over there.


                                But I don't feel like arguing these calculations to salvage Unity's trajectory are rather demanding. Why don't you detail what you think is the course humanity should take. I'll listen while I finish these.
                                Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
                                The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
                                The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

                                Comment

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