Spartan Opening

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Senethro
The Spartans biggest drawback in the modern game is that whether its rovers or mindworms, you can't put together an army capable of taking over a builder without that builder first getting airpower. I've been on both sides of that several times now.

Including one current game

I think it IS possible to take over a builder but it generally has to be the impact rover rush-- Go hard with the rovers while the builder is still setting up. But even that is often not possible depending on the map or other circumstances

[Flubber]

Originally posted by waab
@Senethro

pillage to the max and see how much air power he can produce...I know that leaves a barren waste land. But you should be able to win a war like that. Just produce a lot of cheap rovers and hold your main force back in heavy defended bases. Should not be impossible, but I have never been in that situation so I can't tell if it is difficult or not.

@ waab

An attacker WITHOUT airpower will die every time trying to attack into a defender that has it unless the defender is stupid or the attacker has such a massive advantage in production that they can eat the hits and still keep coming and win by overwhelming the defenses

How exactly do you propose that that rovers that move 3 tiles (elites) even get to the defenders territory when the planes have a range of 8? Impact planes are deadly cheap (2 mineral rows ) and make great scouts or ZOC blockers. You are also coming into the defenders sensor net, road network and into areas with lots of probes.

You say pillage to the max but that presupposes GETTING to the defender's empire-- That's a BIG assumption

Originally posted by waab
Just produce a lot of cheap rovers and hold your main force back in heavy defended bases.

If the Spartans are staying in their bases, the builder can just keep building. remember the builder doesn't need to capture the Spartans to win . "Cheap" rovers sent at a defender are just fodder for morale upgrades.

Originally posted by waab
Should not be impossible, but I have never been in that situation so I can't tell if it is difficult or not.

perhaps Senethro and I can send you our saves from our current game once its done. A few more turns should determine whether Senethro thought an invasion was possible or not . I am the uni and he is playing the neighbor Spartans. Its a little different than the scenario above since he found an ally to trade him airpower to my great discomfort

[waab]

Originally posted by Flubber


I disagree wholeheartedly with that statement. FM is amazing for the Morganites . For almost every faction that can get to +2 ECON, FM can be very very useful at times but with most factions I find green is better late

Proberbly correct, but I just cant play with the big police hit. BUT of course if you are a better morgon player than me it shouldn't be any problem. The only fault I see is mind worms, they are a pain to get rid of with -3 in planet...

I like to play morgan with demo/green/wealth or if you are in war. (police state/green/wealth). BUT of course I am totally useless with any faction that should be played as a capitalist, it is absolutly not my playing style.

Back to spartans, I still don't see the power going with FM, sure high income but no pod farming....

[Flubber]

Originally posted by waab


.

Back to spartans, I still don't see the power going with FM, sure high income but no pod farming....

hmm why not

1. SE choices are not permanent so why not toggle out of FM for a while back then

2. I can think of four very very easy ways to pod farm under FM

a) independent units-- don't laugh-- an initial scout is independent and can travel the globe with impunity under FM-- I usually find you will clone or pop a few units like these

b) Dedicated size one military factory-- This is dead easy to create. Make a size one base and once the pacifism turns the single worker into a drone, make him a doctor. Create this base in a rocky area and just crawl additional minerals to this base. This base will build nothing but crawlers, units and morale enhancing facilities. This base may end up supporting a full scale war as otehr bases can build the units before they are rehomed to this base

c) Like in b but just nervestaple (before going into FM) or get a punishment sphere up

d) probes-- They are vulnerable but for far off seapods I often prefer to use a seaprobe instead of a transport since the chances of getting an AA back from half the world away are low-- As pod poppers, probes have a high mortality rate but they do make excellent support free explorers


I just don't see FM beiing a preventer of pod-popping. It can make executing a full scale war harder but popping should be simple

[CEO Aaron]

Because one rogue worm and your pod poppers can go to bed, and having to rebuild/redeploy them will gravely curtail any turn advantage garnered from the pods.

You're right, the drone issue from Free Market isn't the serious impediment to exploration. Personally, I use transports to pop sea pods, and keep my foil probes busy looking for rival factions when I use FM. The trouble is that without trance your units are meat for the first worm they blunder across.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
You're right, the drone issue from Free Market isn't the serious impediment to exploration. Personally, I use transports to pop sea pods, and keep my foil probes busy looking for rival factions when I use FM. The trouble is that without trance your units are meat for the first worm they blunder across.

CEO Aaron--

You are aware that going FM has absolutely no effect of the strength of your psionic defense right?? In scenarios where you are being attacked, FM or green are all ther same. Check it out if you want. If you need trance you would need it regardless of SE setting and the Spartans higher morale mean they need it less than most. In fact the Spartans have the most survivable pod poppers out there.

The downside of FM is an greater inability to kill the worms due to your negative Plant rating-- But frankly with the Spartans, the higehr morale of the Spartans should negate this somewhat

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
Because one rogue worm and your pod poppers can go to bed, and having to rebuild/redeploy them will gravely curtail any turn advantage garnered from the pods.

Since the chance of dying is unchanged if attacked regardless of SE setting, what does this comment have to do with FM? The only difference FM makes is you may not be able to kill the worms with an attack




Oh and I only pop pods with seaprobes if I can do it with the first movement point. You seem to lose a point in popping and then I use the next two points to run from the IOD if it appears. I find if you run AWAY from the nearest land, the IOD almost never follows

[dmm1285]

Originally posted by Flubber


hmm why not

1. SE choices are not permanent so why not toggle out of FM for a while back then

2. I can think of four very very easy ways to pod farm under FM

a) independent units-- don't laugh-- an initial scout is independent and can travel the globe with impunity under FM-- I usually find you will clone or pop a few units like these

b) Dedicated size one military factory-- This is dead easy to create. Make a size one base and once the pacifism turns the single worker into a drone, make him a doctor. Create this base in a rocky area and just crawl additional minerals to this base. This base will build nothing but crawlers, units and morale enhancing facilities. This base may end up supporting a full scale war as otehr bases can build the units before they are rehomed to this base

c) Like in b but just nervestaple (before going into FM) or get a punishment sphere up

d) probes-- They are vulnerable but for far off seapods I often prefer to use a seaprobe instead of a transport since the chances of getting an AA back from half the world away are low-- As pod poppers, probes have a high mortality rate but they do make excellent support free explorers


I just don't see FM beiing a preventer of pod-popping. It can make executing a full scale war harder but popping should be simple

don't forget transport foils, if you're empasizing pod popping, it's usually better to empasize sea pods anywyas

[Leon Trotsky]

Originally posted by Flubber
How exactly do you propose that that rovers that move 3 tiles (elites) even get to the defenders territory when the planes have a range of 8? Impact planes are deadly cheap (2 mineral rows ) and make great scouts or ZOC blockers. You are also coming into the defenders sensor net, road network and into areas with lots of probes.

You say pillage to the max but that presupposes GETTING to the defender's empire-- That's a BIG assumption

I think waab meant to harrass the opponent by destroying their improvements before he gets Air Power.
(reads waab's and Senethro's posts again)
Yup, I think the whole point of his strategy is to cripple the builder's research and industrial capabilities before he gets flyers. The viability of that procedure is another discussion...

Trotsky
-Advocatus Diaboli

[Leon Trotsky]

Originally posted by Flubber
Since the chance of dying is unchanged if attacked regardless of SE setting, what does this comment have to do with FM? The only difference FM makes is you may not be able to kill the worms with an attack

True. But this also means you lose the income from planetpearls. I see pod popping and worm hunting as two sides of the same coin (at least on land), and FM makes the latter more difficult. Sparta shouldn't have problem because their Morale benefit compensate for negative Planet penalties, but for other fations it proves to be problematic.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by dmm1285


don't forget transport foils, if you're empasizing pod popping, it's usually better to empasize sea pods anywyas

I didn't mention transports since they are not particular to FM. You would use them anyway.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Leon Trotsky


True. But this also means you lose the income from planetpearls. I see pod popping and worm hunting as two sides of the same coin (at least on land), and FM makes the latter more difficult. Sparta shouldn't have problem because their Morale benefit compensate for negative Planet penalties, but for other fations it proves to be problematic.

I'll stack the income you get from FM as opposed to other choices against what someone can get worm hunting every day of the week. You get what -- 10 ec every how many turns?

[CEO Aaron]

Originally posted by Flubber
You are aware that going FM has absolutely no effect of the strength of your psionic defense right?? In scenarios where you are being attacked, FM or green are all ther same. Check it out if you want. If you need trance you would need it regardless of SE setting and the Spartans higher morale mean they need it less than most. In fact the Spartans have the most survivable pod poppers out there.

Thoroughly aware. However, the attacker enjoys a 50% bonus in psi combat, which a 12.5% morale hike only partially mitigates, it still makes your odds of surviving a worm attack pretty low, at least before you've picked up trance.

The downside of FM is an greater inability to kill the worms due to your negative Plant rating-- But frankly with the Spartans, the higehr morale of the Spartans should negate this somewhat

Since the chance of dying is unchanged if attacked regardless of SE setting, what does this comment have to do with FM? The only difference FM makes is you may not be able to kill the worms with an attack

What it has to do with Free Market is that you're 30% down on your attack odds in a psi battle. Surely having worse odds in combat, thus taking more damage and spending more time recovering from damage instead of exploring will curtail my worm and pod harvesting efforts, to say nothing of the chance that I'll eventually lose the unit. Also bear in mind that you're operating with a limited supply of independent units, extremely vulnerable foil probes, or somewhat less vulnerable transports, per the post to which I was responding. My point is that market curtails exploration and the harvesting of native life, no matter how you slice it.

Don't get me wrong, the market is great, remember who you're talking to. I just don't know if it really suits Sparta that well.

Oh and I only pop pods with seaprobes if I can do it with the first movement point. You seem to lose a point in popping and then I use the next two points to run from the IOD if it appears. I find if you run AWAY from the nearest land, the IOD almost never follows

That IS an intersting tidbit that I'll try and use in my future games. Nevertheless, I've always had indifferent luck with Pod farming in Free Market (in fact, I've had indifferent luck in pod-farming in all my games), and generally avoid sea pod farming until I have trance foil transports in my fleet.

[Flubber]

Ceo aaron

The reason Sparta is not that bad in an early FM IMHO is that the 50% attack bonus minus 30 % plus 12.5% puts Sparta in a better attack position in FM than any other faction and in a better defense position than any faction in any SE choice.

As you know the worms in the very early game are very weak so I usually can have a unit up one or two levels through killing a worm and maybe a monolith -- so you may have 37.5% to add versus those still very wimpy worms

And while independents are rare, specialist bases that don't care about pacifism are not-- You can do it with a size one as long as it can work or crawl just enough mionerals to support your units

Originally posted by CEO Aaron



That IS an intersting tidbit that I'll try and use in my future games. Nevertheless, I've always had indifferent luck with Pod farming in Free Market (in fact, I've had indifferent luck in pod-farming in all my games), and generally avoid sea pod farming until I have trance foil transports in my fleet.

Yup-- Its anecdotal but my experience is that an IOD that doesn't have a unit adjacent to attack will move in the direction of the nearest land-- So if I find a pod, I sometimes waste my last movement points so I end the turn adjacent to it

My PREFERRED method to pop seapods is with a transport with a warship in attendence but this is often not feasible

[Flubber]

Oh and some people get too ABSOLUTE in their SE choices. II am playing the UNi in a PBEM now and although I spent a LOT of time in FM, I am now in my second run in PLanned and its not yet 2170. Sure I took a research hit but the popboom and the ability to push out an airforce make it worthwhile.

[Commy]

If you have a big enough tech advantage, you could just use interceptors...they get a penalty for land attacks, but weapons are generally 2x the current armor that anyone has, and then you have no drones...