Spartan Opening

[Maniac]

Build bioenhancement centers then.

[dmm1285]

Originally posted by Maniac
Build bioenhancement centers then.

they come a little late, especially for sparta. Actually, I think a normal faction might be able to make elite formers with bio centers, so that's not really a sparta advantage

[Maniac]

Command center plus bioenhancement center give +4 morale. So for other factions the former will always be one morale short of elite. Unless they're running fundy or power, not exactly the most popular SE choices. Sparta doesn't have this problem due to their inherent +1 morale level. So formers not being able to upgrade with monoliths actually turns out in Sparta's advantage, as they get a unique builder benefit.

[Senethro]

Do they get a benefit at all? The only way I would have a command centre and a bioenhancement centre would be if I had the Command Nexus and the Cyborg Factory. And why would I be building formers at that point?

[CEO Aaron]

Here's my problem with Free Market for Sparta:

You give up pod farming (1 pacifism done is 1 too many).
You give up your police units.
You seriously hamper your worm crawling.

So you cripple your native strengths trying to behave like a builder faction, but the problem is that you'll still be a second-rate builder.

Planned seems to me to be a much stronger choice for an economy setting for Sparta. You counteract your industry woes, get additional growth, for the nominal sacrifice of efficiency.

I also don't think the Police State choice is as bad as some people make out. Sure, you're stuck in it, but being able to support 2 formers per base, plus a couple garrisons is surely worth something. Also, just because I can quell 6 drones per base doesn't mean I have to. It also means that I can quell 2 drones with one scout patrol as a garrison unit.

[Kirov]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
Here's my problem with Free Market for Sparta:

You give up pod farming (1 pacifism done is 1 too many).
You give up your police units.
You seriously hamper your worm crawling.

So you cripple your native strengths trying to behave like a builder faction, but the problem is that you'll still be a second-rate builder.

Sparta needs several important techs if she's to behave like a warmonger. In most situations I tested, NLM is really not enough to conduct successful wars. She needs IA as much as the others (crawlers), add D:Init plus some other stuff like HEC, SotHB or D:Loyalty. Only FM allow her to keep up with the Joneses.

The point is, behave like a builder to set up industrial base that can support offensive wars. From then on you can mass produce whatever units you want. But really, IMHO it's this attempt to "roleplay" Santiago and start wars with completely no industry that makes her look so pathetic. Hitler wouldn't probably attack other factions with scout rovers.

And two more things:

1) Santiago can still kill worms under FM - she still has positive odds.

2) It's NOT her drawback that she can't run Wealth. Actually, the idea of her with Wealth is as ridiculous as running Fundie to offset drawbacks of Knowledge.

[Chaos Theory]

Morale is not particularly useful when you aren't building units or fighting wars. Thus, Wealth has almost no downside when at peace. This would hold even for Santi if she could use Wealth.

Fundy/Knowledge is often a poor choice because Fundy is more appropriate for war whereas Knowledge is more appropriate for peace, and either can be swapped out for another choice depending on whether you consider yourself to be at war or peace. You can't swap out Santi's faction traits. Thus, the comparison is inapt as far as game advantage.

[Commy]

I have played a few games as Sparta...some of them were very tough, as I am very used to the University, Morgans, Angels, and Cyborgs...it's probably important to note that I don't use crawlers at all either, one of my personal things with SMAC...

One strategy I tried was to play somewhat like the Gaians...I rushed to get doctrine: loyalty, then went for centauri empathy...

With the combination of green economy and police state, I was able to amass large armies of mindworms and have a high support rating...

The drawback is the -2 growth...combined with -1 industry, it was very tricky in getting SPs and having infastructure, especially since I had no crawlers to help...

Another strategy I tried was to do democracy and free market, and later do knowledge...

This game went significantly better, but there were several problems...I could never quite reach the levels of wealth and technology I did as other factions, and with -2 support, it was difficult to support a large military...basically, I would have been better off as Morgan or Zakharov...

The last game I played, I did free market and Knowledge, no politics (I later switched to Power once I had cloning vats, but the game was practically over by then)...this game was the best of the 3, but still not an amazing game...

The advantages were that I had the benefits of free market, and no disadvantages from police state or democracy...but I still had pacifism...

Pacifism wasn't that bad for two reasons...one, my units had significantly better weaponry (chaos guns before anyone else got missiles) and most were mobile units, so pacifism didn't usually last very long...also, I had a ring of sea bases around the continent I was on, so my interceptors and navies could move with impunity...

Because I concentrated all my efforts on weapon technology, the penalty for land attacks with interceptors was minimal, and cities were taken with cheap speeders with the highest weapons and no armor (note they had 3 moves because they were elite)...problem was, I didn't have any other technologies, so infastructure suffered horribly...

Ultimately, SMAC favors builders over expansionists, and practically any strategy used with the Spartans does one of two things: 1) It beefs up their military (power, police state) but hurts their economy, or 2) You try to correct the industry disadvantages and turn Sparta into a builder, but then you are better off as Morgan or Zakharov.

+2 morale is practically worthless because it really only gives +1 morale to all units...it's only benefit comes when it helps to make a unit elite, but that takes facilites, which require infastructure and technology, two things Sparta doesn't have...

+1 police is worthless because police state basically strangles every faction except the Hive...if you are Sparta, you have to do free market or you will have no energy or technology, and that +1 police now becomes -4...if you choose to do planned and democracy and pop-boom, you are better off playing a different faction...

Ironically, anything that is done to correct the disadvantages of Sparta is the exact same thing a wimpy pacifist builder would do...in which case, why would you play as Sparta?

[CEO Aaron]

Which is why the police+nutrient angle appeals to me. With just 3 police and a rec commons, she can quell 11 drones, which to my mind is cheap beyond reckoning, and something that only Sparta can do. The only tricky part is getting from the early game to high nutrient income and NLM swiftly.

So that's really my challenge to the Apolyton community: What's the fastest way to get Sparta into a police-powered population boom?

[waab]

I am absolutly no expert playing with the spartans, but saying that police state is useless is mayby a little bit hard (mayby because I play with police state for 90% of the time). Police starte will give the spartans a lot of troops and a really good police ratio, a good ground to start a war with, ad Green and start hunting for mind worms and you should be able to fight a really nice war. Green/Police state could also lead to 2 good allies early on, Hive and Gaians. Then you can go attacking Morgon (try to enslave him) and Miriam (just kill her of). The low pop growth is solved by ICS. Trade for al tech you can and try to enslave some tech heavy factions. As long as you are playing with the spartans against the AI you should be able to outfight Peacekeepers and Morgon any day. The same thing could probalby be said about Zakharov and when you have comen so far you really don't need to spen a lot on science.

Of course this is not a builder strategy but playing spatarns as a builder seams quit stupid.

@CEO Aaron
I think it could be really hard to get spartans pop-booming keep the bases small, but many (let me change that to infinitty amount of bases) and don't use only military improvment a CC.

[Chaos Theory]

Part of the problem with Police State is that Efficiency bottoms out pretty quickly, and with disastrous results. Simply add 4 to your actual efficiency rating to get your "absolute" efficiency rating. The distance at which you lose all of a base's energy is 8 times your absolute effic, so you suffer double losses in Police State relative to no SE. This really hurts as soon as late in the early game, and the Spartans can ill-afford picking up Centauri Empathy if it means delaying some of the most important economic techs, unless they can trade/extort for them.

Once a solid economic base is laid, Police/Green can work very well, but turn advantage is gained or lost earlier than that. Unless in Police/Green, the Spartans are poor builders, and every faction needs to be able to build some of the time. Even such warmongers as Miriam and Yang have advantages that can be bent to building more easily than +1 Police.

[waab]

@Chaos Theory
Your correct about that only police state wont be the best choice early on, but I think it would be a waste of powers to go for demo, free market...the extra police ratio should make it possible to go without RC. Get one or two formers going building forrests and then start ICS.

Free Market will only lead to that you cant use you rovers to hunt for pods and kill mindworms for money without getting problems with riots. Even if I play with Morgans (which I have only done one or two times, not my ideology or playing style) I wouldn't go for an early Free Market. According to me Free Market should be used late in the game and for the Spartans never. Free Market leads to that you lose the only good side that you have:
* +1 police => -4 police
* 0 planet => -3 planet

-3 planet is stupid for the spartans when they could have high moral mindworms (because +2 moral) and +2 planet (with green) giving a really power house when it comes to waging PSI wars.

As I said in my first post I am not a frequent spartan player, I mostly playing gaians, hive, drones and some times the cult. So don't take everything I say as some "holy" truth.

[Senethro]

The Spartans biggest drawback in the modern game is that whether its rovers or mindworms, you can't put together an army capable of taking over a builder without that builder first getting airpower. I've been on both sides of that several times now.

[waab]

@Senethro

pillage to the max and see how much air power he can produce...I know that leaves a barren waste land. But you should be able to win a war like that. Just produce a lot of cheap rovers and hold your main force back in heavy defended bases. Should not be impossible, but I have never been in that situation so I can't tell if it is difficult or not.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by waab
Even if I play with Morgans (which I have only done one or two times, not my ideology or playing style) I wouldn't go for an early Free Market. According to me Free Market should be used late in the game and for the Spartans never.

I disagree wholeheartedly with that statement. FM is amazing for the Morganites . For almost every faction that can get to +2 ECON, FM can be very very useful at times but with most factions I find green is better late