Free Drones: the most powerful faction?

[Kirov]

Re: update

Originally posted by dmm1285
the year is 2176

max econ specialists: 229 ec turn/10 lab turns
max lab specialists: ~120 ec turn/6 lab turns

SP's:
WP
HGP
PTS
PEG

I've been using zak as a free r and d lab, but I messed up and he killed 2 of my cps, so that's over
My goal right now is fusion for the engineers, reactor, etc.

Looks better than I expected from Pirates in 76. Would you care to do a game report of your opening turns? I tried playing Pirates, but as Senethro I couldn't replicate your pod results when it comes to AAs/ogres. And as CEO Aaron, I do get very frustrated with Sealurks and IoDs (abundant life forms, of course).

I'm still convinced that the Pirates are poor, but playing them can be quite challenging and this is what incites me to take a closer look at them (half of my SP games are with Planet Cult),

One note, dmm: one of the most unforgivable mistakes (in MP) is not grabbing D:Init and MCC ASAP. IMHO, Pirates need to control MCC even more than Zak with VW.

[dmm1285]

Re: Re: update

Originally posted by Kirov


Looks better than I expected from Pirates in 76. Would you care to do a game report of your opening turns? I tried playing Pirates, but as Senethro I couldn't replicate your pod results when it comes to AAs/ogres. And as CEO Aaron, I do get very frustrated with Sealurks and IoDs (abundant life forms, of course).

I'm still convinced that the Pirates are poor, but playing them can be quite challenging and this is what incites me to take a closer look at them (half of my SP games are with Planet Cult),

One note, dmm: one of the most unforgivable mistakes (in MP) is not grabbing D:Init and MCC ASAP. IMHO, Pirates need to control MCC even more than Zak with VW.

I don't have the opening turns any more, but I believe I found 1/2 AA's as well as 2/3 instabuilds. As I told Senethro, you need to make a commitment to it, I try to have 4 transports out at all times, if I lose one to an IoD, I build another ASAP. If you are concered about IoD's, you always just not pop pods without 3 moves, you should almost never lose transports then (at the cost of speed). As far a the MCC, I'm not sure how much it would have helped, I had most of the ocean explored by the time I could have built it

[Kirov]

You got 4 SPs by 2176 with only 1/2 AA's? I was pretty sure the only way to grab SPs, esp with the Pirates, is instabuild. Do you actually spend some production time over each of them?

If you could start another game and do a game report, I'd like to take a look at it. When you start expansion, what's your b-line and so on.

I must say the Pirates are a very interesting faction. It's as if an entirely different game with them. Will definitely pick them more often in MP.

[dmm1285]

Originally posted by Kirov
You got 4 SPs by 2176 with only 1/2 AA's? I was pretty sure the only way to grab SPs, esp with the Pirates, is instabuild. Do you actually spend some production time over each of them?

If you could start another game and do a game report, I'd like to take a look at it. When you start expansion, what's your b-line and so on.

I must say the Pirates are a very interesting faction. It's as if an entirely different game with them. Will definitely pick them more often in MP.

Oh no, I meant I got 1/2 AA's and 3/4 instabuilds by 2117, I got around 5 AA's and 7-10 instabuilds by 2176.Really though, the ones after 2117, by the time I built my next SP, I coul;d have easily built it using regular crawlers if I wanted it badly enough. If it was an MP game, I wouldn't expect the PTS or HGP to be around by 2150. My beeling for the pirates is pretty much the same I use for other facs, snag Centauri Ecology first, then head to IA. I will play another game when I get a chance, but I've started playing around with AI boost factyion with +5econ/industry/support and free tree farms, so if I was in the smae position I was in this game, I would be tied with the AI or losing to it.

[Munin]

I find it surprising that people are rating the Morganites so highly. To me they seem to be a weak cousin to the University or the Peacekeepers, without all the toys the first two get, and with, in addition, the disadvantages compared to baseline factions of needing to build a hab complex before a base can have most specialists and not being able to run demo-planned-creche for simple pop booms. And for all that they get, what? The ability to run +2 Econ without Free Market using Wealth is the only thing I can think of, and that doesn't seem worth it. Is that just much more useful in multiplayer than it seems it would be, or am I missing something else?

[Chaos Theory]

With Demo/Green/Wealth for +4 effic and +2 econ, the Morganites can move the Econ/Labs slider without penalty. Only the CyCon can achieve similar conditions early on, and they don't get the Planet bonus. Think of the Morganites, under these conditions, as Gaians with +2 Econ, but smaller bases.

[Senethro]

Originally posted by Munin
I find it surprising that people are rating the Morganites so highly. To me they seem to be a weak cousin to the University or the Peacekeepers, without all the toys the first two get, and with, in addition, the disadvantages compared to baseline factions of needing to build a hab complex before a base can have most specialists and not being able to run demo-planned-creche for simple pop booms. And for all that they get, what? The ability to run +2 Econ without Free Market using Wealth is the only thing I can think of, and that doesn't seem worth it. Is that just much more useful in multiplayer than it seems it would be, or am I missing something else?

The main thing you are missing is FM/Wealth for +4 Econ. That gives you +4 energy per base and a couple of bonus commerce rates.

Therefore, the more bases you have, the more money you make.

Therefore, you place the bases close together.

Therefore, only the perimeter bases need defenders because its not like you can use police anyway.

And thus your terraforming won't be too much more costly than anyone elses. However, a lack of Planned and low support may mean you find yourself hurrying lots of recycling tanks to keep bases growing and productive.

And as you get Air Power and Environmental Economics by 2175 (with a bit of luck) you don't have to survive too long before you're on the level with everyone else.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Senethro
No, I still don't understand. What is the point of the Pirates at all if you go to land? Nearly all land factions can do land settling better.

You go land because in the early game its all about speed of settling. The incredible mineral cost of sea units and sea pods makes an all sea approach to the Priates a fools gambit. Instead by going land side early you leverage cheaper colony pod costs and still get the advantage of free pressure domes that power early research. The builds of land transports gives quicker early game forming and settling. (you are building the land transports in proxy to formers as you most likely are research Centauri ecology and awaiting discovery pof that tech during the first 4-5 turns)

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by dmm1285


I prefer sea transports to land, they can much higher divedends

If your intentionis sea pod popping yes. But don't underestimate the turn advantage of having two land transports to eliminate former moves and to set colony pods a turn faster. And given the fact that the intention is minimal time in build cycle so that you can churn out a colony pod they become a natural first build for the first two pirate colonies.

[Net Warrior]

Hmmm....it seems like there's a little more play in The Pirates then I first thought. They don't hold a candle to The Free Drones, IMHO, but there are certainly some interesting angles to exploit. I think I'll give 'em a try in a SP sometime soon. I'd love to hear more about any other angles anyone has dreamed up for them.

[CEO Aaron]

Originally posted by Munin
I find it surprising that people are rating the Morganites so highly. To me they seem to be a weak cousin to the University or the Peacekeepers, without all the toys the first two get, and with, in addition, the disadvantages compared to baseline factions of needing to build a hab complex before a base can have most specialists and not being able to run demo-planned-creche for simple pop booms. And for all that they get, what? The ability to run +2 Econ without Free Market using Wealth is the only thing I can think of, and that doesn't seem worth it. Is that just much more useful in multiplayer than it seems it would be, or am I missing something else?

On the surface, Morgans do seem weak, and they're not without their drawbacks, but they have both easily overlooked advantages and easily negated drawbacks.

First, the advantages. 100 credits from the word go is a huge advantage if you go for Biogenics right away.

Economy: As Senethro points out, every point of economy adds +1 energy to the base square. Having your size 2 base pumping out 8 or more energy before base facilities is pretty incredible.

Starts with industrial base: First of all, you're one step closer to the vaunted Industrial Automation, with wealth, crawlers and the PTS. Second, you've got synth armor prototyped from the word go. If you're into upgrade tricks and shell units, this is a very convenient advantage in an early conflict.

Now the drawbacks:

-1 support: This is definitely the biggest drawback that Morgan has, but the truth is this: The longer the game goes on, the less relevant that disadvantage is. Sooner or later, everyone runs into support limits and starts either investing in clean reactors or paying extra minerals to support their peons. Yes, Morgan will have to do this earlier, but their added energy income can easily compensate for that and more.

You can't run planned: But why would you want to? If you're in building mode, hit Free Market for huge influx of cash and with a reasonable diversion to psych, Golden Ages for population booms. For warfare, Green offers useful advantages while letting your units take the field and conquer.

Hab limits: Since the best way to leverage the Morganite economic edge is to produce lots of small bases, this isn't really a drawback at all until you hit the late game, ie: the gulf between hab complexes and hab domes. While having lower population in this period will cut into your productivity, you should have gotten to that era long before your opponents. Once you research hab domes, however, this is the ONLY factional restriction that quite simply disappears.

Morgan is the ultimate builder. Zakarov has the ability to learn new techs fast, but really doesn't have any special abilities to get his innovations in the field faster than his rivals. Lal's hab limits and free talents might let him build higher for a while, but certainly not faster.

[Sikander]

The Pirates are really a blast to play, in large part because playing them is so different than playing the other factions. I go to ground for the reasons that Ogie states, but I don't necessarily abandon the sea. Instead I'll tend to use a "hollow" placement strategy of ringing a continent with port bases, and exploiting the hinterland in the center with crawlers. My bases work the shallow tiles for food, energy and one mineral. I may also build some forest to work, and boost minerals with crawlers. Later I'll try and maximize boreholes. You end up with bases that are cranking out the energy and are full up to the hab level despite the fact that they are only two tiles apart and you aren't using condensors.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Sikander
The Pirates are really a blast to play, in large part because playing them is so different than playing the other factions. I go to ground for the reasons that Ogie states, but I don't necessarily abandon the sea. Instead I'll tend to use a "hollow" placement strategy of ringing a continent with port bases, and exploiting the hinterland in the center with crawlers. My bases work the shallow tiles for food, energy and one mineral. I may also build some forest to work, and boost minerals with crawlers. Later I'll try and maximize boreholes. You end up with bases that are cranking out the energy and are full up to the hab level despite the fact that they are only two tiles apart and you aren't using condensors.

Truth be told I don't abandon the sea route either (in its entirety) its just the first set of bases up to about the first buearacracy warning get planted as the two original sea bases and remainder as land bases. After that warning typically second round expansions go back to sea (when minerals are being produced at these bases in large enough quantities that sea chassis are more easily afforded.)

Again I typically look at a faction from its ability to quick start. Pirates can realtively quick start using the approach I detailed above.

[Kirov]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron



First, the advantages. 100 credits from the word go is a huge advantage if you go for Biogenics right away.

So you go for Rec. Tanks? Wouldn't you like to get FM and Wealth a bit sooner?

I also agree that Morgan works best with FM. Some time ago it seemed to me that Wealth is enough for them, but that was before I learnt how to handle FM.

Another thing that boosts Morgan: PTS. Rush to it and you'll never care about pop capping.

[Kirov]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


Truth be told I don't abandon the sea route either (in its entirety) its just the first set of bases up to about the first buearacracy warning get planted as the two original sea bases and remainder as land bases. After that warning typically second round expansions go back to sea (when minerals are being produced at these bases in large enough quantities that sea chassis are more easily afforded.)

Again I typically look at a faction from its ability to quick start. Pirates can realtively quick start using the approach I detailed above.

Hmm, I played around with Pirates and have an impression that 4 transport foils in the first place give a bit more turn advantage than going lang with infantry transports, as far as pod popping is concerned.

Not to mention that all too often the landmass you start by can be already taken by another faction, so you may go to ground only to find out that instead of formers you have to build armed rovers. On the other hand, if you delay such an expansion you can easily find some peaceful and abundant island with a landmark on it.