Free Drones: the most powerful faction?

[CEO Aaron]

A game less than 100 turns in really isn't what I had in mind. I will go ahead and try to play the save posted, just to see what can be done with it.

[Kirov]

Originally posted by rsfarrell
So those named as strongest include:

Uni
PKs
Pirates
Hive
Drones
Spartans/Cyborgs/Morgan/Gaia

Chose two among the latter four and start a tournament.

I'd place Spartans a bit lower, lower than the Angels, at least IMHO.

I love the Uni -- I used to play them exclusively on SP until I broadened my focus -- but their being a target so early, and the fact that their major advantage can be instantly removed by a determined probe attack, makes me hestitate to put them at the very top. The advantages of the Drones -- or the PKs, for that matter -- can never be stolen.

I can't agree here. You can steal NLM, but Uni's being first to crawlers, wealth, VW, HSA, CBA & CF - this can't be stolen.

[CEO Aaron]

Kirov has the right of it. You can't steal turn advantage. The trick with University is making sure you turn your tech advantage into a production advantage, which is ultimately why I consider the factions I mentioned earlier to be weak. They're all very poor at generating and maintaining turn advantage.

[Kirov]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
Kirov has the right of it. You can't steal turn advantage. The trick with University is making sure you turn your tech advantage into a production advantage, which is ultimately why I consider the factions I mentioned earlier to be weak. They're all very poor at generating and maintaining turn advantage.

As regards turn advantage there's also one maybe small but nonetheless annoying thing - instabuild pops. What can you get with Drones or Believers? In a current PBEM game when I play Believers, I got 3 Recreation Commons, one 2-2-1 unit and maybe a CP...

Meanwhile, one of the most overlooked advantage of Angels is that you can get a network node in like a third turn. I know, I know, they're nothing to write home about, but if you like them, you really can get something useful out of them. Recommended especially for games set by Darsnan, with his AI's transcending in 2130.

dmm, a word on Pirates: Statistically, popping pods is very good, but you do realize that it's not a reliable strategy for playing a faction?

[CEO Aaron]

Yeah, the practice of monkeying with your build queues in hopes of getting instabuild pops to buy incredibly expensive units (esp crawlers for later SP building) is one that I take a very dim view of. It's pretty much an exploit of the loophole that you can switch units under construction without cost, about on par with changing your industry SE values while doing crawler turn-ins to inflate their value.

[dmm1285]

Originally posted by Kirov
dmm, a word on Pirates: Statistically, popping pods is very good, but you do realize that it's not a reliable strategy for playing a faction?

What IS a reliable strategy? I mean, the drones are ementioned in this thread as teh most powerful, and they are in trouble if they don't get contact early, gaians would prefer more fungus, ect. Also, I certainly don't just go pop pods and hope for the best. I was just playing and was getting horrible pod pops, low cash, "only" 2 instabuild an aaa, lots of IoD's, but I'm still straight. Anyway, here are my full rankings, don't think I posted before:

Univ
-
-
Drones (early planetary networks in some way)
Pirates (best pods)
-
-
Morgan
Hive
Drones (noramal)
-
-
Lal
CyCon
Gaians
Angels
Pirates (worst pods)
-
-
Believers
Spartans
-
-
-
_
_
_
_
_
_
_

Cult

The ones grouped toegther are vey close in terms of power in my eyes. The VW is what puts the univ over the top; no other faction has a SP tailored to them like that. The cult is the only faction I find completelt useless, the difference between to +1 and +2 splanet is negliegble, and the gaians kill them in every other catergory. Maybe if they got their free brood pit to start the game I'd choose them more.

[dmm1285]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
Yeah, the practice of monkeying with your build queues in hopes of getting instabuild pops to buy incredibly expensive units (esp crawlers for later SP building) is one that I take a very dim view of. It's pretty much an exploit of the loophole that you can switch units under construction without cost, about on par with changing your industry SE values while doing crawler turn-ins to inflate their value.

Do you use the upgrade crawler trick? That is CLEARLY an exploit. In the early game (when instabuilds are more useful anyways) you're forgetting 2 points:

1) You're not going to have crawlers yet anyways (unless you're the univ). Speeder formers (what I use them for) are nice, but hardly a gamebreaker, they are worth only 80% of an AA when disbanded. Now if you are using them to build armored crawlers I can see your point (if you don't use the upgrade trick)

2) You cannot get the instabuild pod when building a CP unless your pop is above 2. So even if worked only on facilites it be would worth messing around with.

I agree about messing with the SE for cash ins, that clearly isn't intended. On the other hand, I think the stockpile bug also should be banned, and its widley accepted, so what do I know?

[dmm1285]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
A game less than 100 turns in really isn't what I had in mind. I will go ahead and try to play the save posted, just to see what can be done with it.

I'm not done, I was just giving an update

[dmm1285]

Originally posted by Sikander
I find the most useful of the SPs for the Pirates (or almost any pop-boom inhibited faction) is the HGP. With it GA pop booming is a lot simpler. Get it early and run FM for a terrific energy boost. While I always enjoy getting the WP, it falls to #2 in my opinion for the Pirates.

It's VERY close to me, I like early condensors a lot. On the other hand, the Pirates can always use the coastline for some easy nuts for popbooming. On the other OTHER hand, you're kinda forced to work those instead of crawling with trawlers being more expensive. I might try going HGP and that strategy next game.

[Kirov]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
Yeah, the practice of monkeying with your build queues in hopes of getting instabuild pops to buy incredibly expensive units (esp crawlers for later SP building) is one that I take a very dim view of. It's pretty much an exploit of the loophole that you can switch units under construction without cost, about on par with changing your industry SE values while doing crawler turn-ins to inflate their value.

I don't believe it's a loophole. Would you penalize people for "second thoughts" and switching back to the original production? Would end up with players staring half an hour at a base considering pros and cons of switching.

Personally, I think it's not more an exploit than ICSing or using crawlers. Tedious, for sure, but if you don't do it in MP then you don't take it too seriously.

[Kirov]

Originally posted by dmm1285
Do you use the upgrade crawler trick? That is CLEARLY an exploit. In the early game (when instabuilds are more useful anyways) you're forgetting 2 points:

1) You're not going to have crawlers yet anyways (unless you're the univ). Speeder formers (what I use them for) are nice, but hardly a gamebreaker, they are worth only 80% of an AA when disbanded. Now if you are using them to build armored crawlers I can see your point (if you don't use the upgrade trick)

2) You cannot get the instabuild pod when building a CP unless your pop is above 2. So even if worked only on facilites it be would worth messing around with.

I agree. These are the reasons why Drones, Miriam, Pirates have it even worse than Uni, Morgan, Angels (the latter instabuilding nodes and banks, VERY useful to generate the turn advantage).

I agree about messing with the SE for cash ins, that clearly isn't intended. On the other hand, I think the stockpile bug also should be banned, and its widley accepted, so what do I know?

To make it clear: Stockpile actually _fixes_ the game. By inserting it into the queue you get rid of the bug by which buildings give cash upon completion while units not. Quite important if you find yourself fighting a compulsive builder.

[Chaos Theory]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
Yeah, the practice of monkeying with your build queues in hopes of getting instabuild pops to buy incredibly expensive units (esp crawlers for later SP building) is one that I take a very dim view of. It's pretty much an exploit of the loophole that you can switch units under construction without cost, about on par with changing your industry SE values while doing crawler turn-ins to inflate their value.

I don't agree that it's much of an exploit. If this loophole were not in the game, I would time builds and pod pops so that I could have chances at expensive crawlers with few minerals accumulated, and thus few to lose by switching.

[dmm1285]

Originally posted by Kirov
To make it clear: Stockpile actually _fixes_ the game. By inserting it into the queue you get rid of the bug by which buildings give cash upon completion while units not. Quite important if you find yourself fighting a compulsive builder.

Thanks for the info, the bug only affects after you build a unit, correct?

[rsfarrell]

I can't agree here. You can steal NLM, but Uni's being first to crawlers, wealth, VW, HSA, CBA & CF - this can't be stolen.

No, but you can blow up the crawlers, outrun Zak to the VW, and steal the base with the CBA.

All building factions have an advantage before the factions come into contact. Whether the turn advantage you generate in that time is enough to make you come out on top is, of course, the name of the game. You aren't going to be building the CF and the CBA before you have to deal with probe attacks on the one hand and momentum players on the other.

[Setroc]

Is it just me or this list all wrong:
Univ

Drones (early planetary networks in some way)
Pirates (best pods)

Morgan
Hive
Drones (normal)

Lal
CyCon
Gaians
Angels
Pirates (worst pods)

Believers
Spartans

Cult

I know every player has their own perspective and strengths, but Pirates being considered so powerful seems ludicrous to me. The growth penalty is notoriously difficult to overcome in terms of turn advantage. -1 efficiency is a pain. And to top it all off, sea formers and sea CPs cost way too much. I wouldn't even put them up with Drones if you could choose your own pod results.