Free Drones: the most powerful faction?

[Senethro]

Yes, the Pirate's positioning does seem odd. I've tried to start several Pirate games recently and can never get the pod results that dmm can. I'm also not convinced that that rush start can be carried into the midgame. Needs 70 more turns of play to convince me.

[Xian]

The pirates tend to be overrated by players who only play by themselves wit the AI, which we all know is absolutely atrocious. However what people don't realize is that the AI is not universally atrocious - it does some things worse than others

Different factions are played by the AI worse than human players in DIFFERENT degrees. Ie Morgan is played by the AI worse than a human much more so than the Hive.

In particular the Hive and the Pirates tend to be ridiculously overrated by players who dont play MP, and the Uni and Morganites underrated.

In the majority of circumstances, with normal luck for starting territory and so on, the Drones will be the best faction in the game, mainly because Industry is the most important single factor. Obviously you can think of certain circumstances that will cripple them because of technology - but you can come up with circumstances that cripple for MOST other factions in the game too.

[Senethro]

So, in an MP game among strictly rational players everyone would kill the University first and never trade techs with the Drones. Assuming cooperative victories are off, anyway.

[Kirov]

Originally posted by rsfarrell


No, but you can blow up the crawlers, outrun Zak to the VW, and steal the base with the CBA.

All building factions have an advantage before the factions come into contact. Whether the turn advantage you generate in that time is enough to make you come out on top is, of course, the name of the game. You aren't going to be building the CF and the CBA before you have to deal with probe attacks on the one hand and momentum players on the other.

I'm not sure if you realize that Zak can get IA as early as 2112-13 if he lands on the river. You don't outrun Zak to VW if you still await Centauri Ecology.

And steal the base with CBA?? Try it when CBA is at HQ. Or better still, in a non-coastal base 2 squares in land from HQ. I've seen situations where SP bases where completely out of reach of probes, unless you win a war anyway.

Seriously, I thought we were talking MP now. You don't just come to Zak for him to roll over and give all his techs away.

BTW, nice sig. Been reading Kurt Vonnegut?

[Kirov]

Originally posted by Xian
In the majority of circumstances, with normal luck for starting territory and so on, the Drones will be the best faction in the game, mainly because Industry is the most important single factor. Obviously you can think of certain circumstances that will cripple them because of technology - but you can come up with circumstances that cripple for MOST other factions in the game too.

Don't forget the human factor in MP. While, for instance, playing Zak is more often than not exercise in "how not to get all other players to get together", Pirates probably have it much easier. Being low on the graph is a very powerful diplomatic tool. Access to information even more.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Pirates aren't that bad really. D: Flex is a wonderful inital tech to have and here is why

Go inland ASAP. Best means I have found is simply this.

Move sea colony pods next to land mass. Likely two separate land masses. First build should be infantry transport. 10 free mins and 3 minerals allows the transport to be built in 4 turns. Next build is a land colony pod. Infantry transport can move directly from the base to land. If a pod is within base radii pop it with the transport in hopes of an AA. (It will likely always be a good outcome if within base radii). By turn 5 you are working to produce land bound pods and units.

As soon as you've researched Centauri Ecology (formers) you'll likely want to make these as well and send them land side. (If your lucky or have taken the time to scout around a bit you might have the monsoon jungle as your own - This might be the real hidden strength of the pirates)

Initially as you have those two sea colonies to yourself and no threats from other factions I tend to leave them -gasp!!! unprotected and ungarisoned. All that you need fear is the wandereing sea lurks which normally don't show for the first 20-30 turns. Prior to size 2 staple them, and then later on add the garison/rec commons etc.

You've got two land transports that aid in early terraforming time (eliminates former move turns) and it gets you land bound and setting your land colony pods turns sooner (eliminating costly land pod moves).

Stay away from building additional sea colony pods until you've gotten a core continent or two to your own. They are just too mineral intensive in the early game to warrant wasting valuable early turns.

[Senethro]

No, I still don't understand. What is the point of the Pirates at all if you go to land? Nearly all land factions can do land settling better.

[CEO Aaron]

While I'm in basic agreement with you, Senethro, I think their idea is that by migrating to land asap, you mitigate the early game drawbacks of life at sea while being able to scour the map for freebie pods.

One reason I find the pirates to be so irritating is that I habitually play on maps with abundant native life. With the seas so choked with fungus and worms, it's really only a matter of time before my defenseless foils are eaten, whether by randomly spawning natives, or by an IOD spawned from a remote, fungus-bound pod. Such factors will severely curtail the mobility and freedom that the supporters of Sven claim to enjoy.

[dmm1285]

update

the year is 2176

max econ specialists: 229 ec turn/10 lab turns
max lab specialists: ~120 ec turn/6 lab turns

SP's:
WP
HGP
PTS
PEG

I've been using zak as a free r and d lab, but I messed up and he killed 2 of my cps, so that's over
My goal right now is fusion for the engineers, reactor, etc.

[dmm1285]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Pirates aren't that bad really. D: Flex is a wonderful inital tech to have and here is why



You've got two land transports that aid in early terraforming time (eliminates former move turns) and it gets you land bound and setting your land colony pods turns sooner (eliminating costly land pod moves).

Stay away from building additional sea colony pods until you've gotten a core continent or two to your own. They are just too mineral intensive in the early game to warrant wasting valuable early turns.

I prefer sea transports to land, they can much higher divedends

[dmm1285]

Originally posted by Senethro
Yes, the Pirate's positioning does seem odd. I've tried to start several Pirate games recently and can never get the pod results that dmm can. I'm also not convinced that that rush start can be carried into the midgame. Needs 70 more turns of play to convince me.

Any combination of 4 AA's or instabuilds (After IBase and CEcology) equal one SP, that's not hard to accomplish at all.

[dmm1285]

Originally posted by Setroc
I know every player has their own perspective and strengths, but Pirates being considered so powerful seems ludicrous to me. The growth penalty is notoriously difficult to overcome in terms of turn advantage. -1 efficiency is a pain. And to top it all off, sea formers and sea CPs cost way too much. I wouldn't even put them up with Drones if you could choose your own pod results.

The growth penalty is the only thing stopping them from being unbalanced. -1 effieceny does almost nothing. I've mentioned at least 3 times in this post that I do NOT build sea CP's/formers.

[dmm1285]

Originally posted by Xian
The pirates tend to be overrated by players who only play by themselves wit the AI, which we all know is absolutely atrocious. However what people don't realize is that the AI is not universally atrocious - it does some things worse than others

Different factions are played by the AI worse than human players in DIFFERENT degrees. Ie Morgan is played by the AI worse than a human much more so than the Hive.

In particular the Hive and the Pirates tend to be ridiculously overrated by players who dont play MP, and the Uni and Morganites underrated.

In the majority of circumstances, with normal luck for starting territory and so on, the Drones will be the best faction in the game, mainly because Industry is the most important single factor. Obviously you can think of certain circumstances that will cripple them because of technology - but you can come up with circumstances that cripple for MOST other factions in the game too.

You need to read my list again, I put Univ at the very top, and put Morgan in that second group.

[Senethro]

Eh, I suppose its good but you still haven't reached the stage of a game where some factions will have popboomed to size 14. So you're fast and will enter the midgame well but I think you'll lose steam quickly.

I've also tried to start Pirate games but even with more transports on a larger world with more pods to pop I haven't been able to replicate your lucky results.

[dmm1285]

Originally posted by Senethro
Eh, I suppose its good but you still haven't reached the stage of a game where some factions will have popboomed to size 14. So you're fast and will enter the midgame well but I think you'll lose steam quickly.

I've also tried to start Pirate games but even with more transports on a larger world with more pods to pop I haven't been able to replicate your lucky results.

Are you talking nut sats? If you are, I consider that more late game, it's the least important of the holy 3 to me (MMI, Fusion, OSpaceflight). Plus, who's to say the drones will even be around for the midgame? If they haven't caught up yet, I would definently see them as a major target. Also, my pod results aren't "lucky". I definently build my first SP sooner than usual, but only by a few years, anything after 2130 I consider atrocious for the pirates. How many transports are you using? I get 4 (plus your gun foil) out ASAP, even at the expense of cp's sometimes. Are you designing and using speeder/rover formers? Not only are they worth 80% of an AA mineral wise, they can increase your terraform time with their two moves, and protect against early rushes with their synthmetal armor.