What's up with the Expansion Factions?

[MeiRen]

So yeah, what's the verdict on the Expansion Factions? Are any of them balanced with the main game factions? Are they supposed to be?

[Leon Trotsky]

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131821

I think there is a consensus on Crossfire factions being more powerful. As for the Aliens... well, they are supposed to be overpowered. I haven't heard of a human player using them in PBEMs.

[Marid Audran]

In my opinion the SMAX factions are rather skewed balance-wise, especially vis-a-vis the original SMAC. For that reason I've modified all five of them so that the trade-offs are more attuned to the perks (and in the case of the Pirates and the Cult, the boons are worth the downsides). The expansion pack had a short development cycle at Firaxis and a quick (and very buggy) release, so I don't think they were playtested very extensively; what might have seemed balanced at the time time has shown to be over(under)powering.

[MeiRen]

What are the mods you made, and to which factions?

[Marid Audran]

The Pirates now have +1 SUPPORT and robust GROWTH (running green gives -1 to GROWTH instead of -2).

The Planet Cult now have -2 ECONOMY. The industry hit has been omitted. They are immune to the Fundy choice in SE.

The Data Angels now have +1 PROBE (to compensate for the infamous probe rollover bug that occurs when a faction has +4 PROBE bonus and it resets to zero). They have a base 20% penalty when defending in combat (but not attacking).

The Cyborg Consciousness now has -1 SUPPORT.

The Free Drones now have -2 PLANET and 200% cost to probe activities.

[MeiRen]

huh, interesting, though I don't understand your choices. Cyborgs are the only ones who really struck me as too powerful, and -1 Support seems pretty badass. Granted, I never played much with the Cult or Angels.

[Senethro]

Ouch, Marid. I really think you've been too harsh on the Cult/Angels/Cyborgs there. None of those factions are as powerful as the Uni or Hive and I've never understood why many players think they are.

Really, what is it that makes people think that the Cyborgs are some kind of super-university? The lack of free network nodes makes their research much slower.

[Marid Audran]

Yes, however their +2 efficiency makes them able to abuse SE options more than other factions, for instance, Police State and Planned. Even without the nodes they will be a superior research faction to the others, University excepted. Tech steal when capturing a base means they could even neglect research somewhat employing a momentum strategy whilst maintaining tech parity.

Remember that the University have severe drone problems that the other factions don't share, especially on higher difficulty levels, though anything lower than Thinker I'll admit they are a handicapped faction, mostly for beginners.

As far as the Data Angels, I consider -1 police to be something of a negligible con, even compared to -1 planet or any other SE. I wanted something to slightly tame their monster probe advantages and general baseline versiltility. I rationalized it thinking that a faction of ne'er-do-wells, iconoclasts, and brainy outcasts who values their civil rights, liberties, and network accounts would be more likely to bolt and scatter when under attack vs. a more regimented army.

The Cult I didn't penalize; quite the contrary, I boosted in competitiveness and mettle. You must have meant the Drones. Their +2 industry is a HUGE bonus. There is a reason why WEALTH and PLANNED are such SE favorites, and its the industry bonus. With the Drones it can get frankly obscene, so I wanted to tame them somewhat, beyond the research penalty (which usually means they'll simply build a million probes to maintain tech parity).

The Pirates I helped out since I've found they tend to flounder (ahem) compared to land-based factions by mid-game; minerals are scarce and at a premium for this faction, especially building foil and cruiser chassises on everything. Ergo, a little support and a little more incentive to run GREEN (even go the AI to do it).

They are of course, my personal prerences and no one else has to "suffer" them. I also play with a modified alphax.txt ruleset which I decided to re-balance a bit as well, so it suits my needs.

[Senethro]

But to give the Cyborgs lowered support? Support is one of the less valuable bonuses, but one of the worst penalties. Morgan gets around it by hurrying his productions but I don't see what mechanism the Cyborgs have to help them combat it.
You don't think that inability to easy pop-boom is penalty enough for the cyborgs?
And on Transcend, I disagree that the University has severe drone problems relative to other factions.

If you made the Angel's worse, then you would also have to add penalties to the other versatile faction, the PKs. Extra talents and bigger living space are decent bonuses (if entirely different from the Angels' probing.)

Yes, you have penalised the cult. You've crippled their early research by giving -1 energy per base. Hive players know how that feels. Your research suddenly will live or die depending on your ability to find rivers and monoliths.

I personally doubt the drones would notice a Planet penalty and as the faction with the cheapest units they aren't going to be doing so much of the probing themselves.

I get the feeling from your comments that you're not much of a Free Marketeer.

[Lazerus]

I think there is a consensus on Crossfire factions being more powerful. As for the Aliens... well, they are supposed to be overpowered. I haven't heard of a human player using them in PBEMs.

That's because every other human player will gas you without any negative side effects

[Marid Audran]

Again, they are my personal preferences; I don't expect you or even most to agree with them.

Keep in mind that in my alphax.txt settings, among many other things, Hab Complexes come later in the game to tame the ability of many factions to balloon their way to dominant, supersized bases. The Hive cannot pop-boom either, though I think few would consider them weak. Of course, they have a cornucopia of bonues otherwise, which is why the AI plays them so well (for the AI).

I think you overstate the Cult's predicament economy-wise; I've personally managed to lead them just fine with my revised settings. They called for a different strategy, certainly. Having a non-retarted industry helps quite a bit, especially with early worm exploration and pod-popping.

The planet penalty for the drones means that mind worms will give them more trouble when Drone troops attempt to attack them, and worms will harass the Drones quicker from ecodamage. I believe Planet rating has a say in whether or not units can successfully enter a fungal square as well.

And no, I use Free Market a-plenty, and much as any SE setting, it has its time and place.

[Kirov]

Originally posted by Marid Audran
Yes, however their +2 efficiency makes them able to abuse SE options more than other factions, for instance, Police State and Planned. Even without the nodes they will be a superior research faction to the others, University excepted. Tech steal when capturing a base means they could even neglect research somewhat employing a momentum strategy whilst maintaining tech parity.

I'm no CyCon player, but I certainly wouldn't say they are overpowered. Inability to popboom is one of the most severe penalies you can get. And I wouldn't overestimate +2 EFFIC with them - running PS/Planned effectively, as well as switching the slider to ECON effectively means cancelling their most and only bonus, research.

Remember that the University have severe drone problems that the other factions don't share, especially on higher difficulty levels, though anything lower than Thinker I'll admit they are a handicapped faction, mostly for beginners.

Univ penalties are by no means severe. I can't imagine less handicapped faction, both for newbies and vets.

As far as the Data Angels, I consider -1 police to be something of a negligible con, even compared to -1 planet or any other SE. I wanted something to slightly tame their monster probe advantages and general baseline versiltility. I rationalized it thinking that a faction of ne'er-do-wells, iconoclasts, and brainy outcasts who values their civil rights, liberties, and network accounts would be more likely to bolt and scatter when under attack vs. a more regimented army.

Angels were third league already, I really don't see any reason to handicap them further. Their probe advantages are not monster without good industry/economy behind them, and other factions will usu deal much better with this issue. I love this faction, it's actually my favourite, but picking them in a PBEM is a self-handicapping measure.

They are of course, my personal prerences and no one else has to "suffer" them. I also play with a modified alphax.txt ruleset which I decided to re-balance a bit as well, so it suits my needs.

Noone questions your rights to do whatever you want with your SMAX. It's just we are talking about factions.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kirov

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Angels were third league already, I really don't see any reason to handicap them further. Their probe advantages are not monster without good industry/economy behind them, and other factions will usu deal much better with this issue. I love this faction, it's actually my favourite, but picking them in a PBEM is a self-handicapping measure.

I don't see why you say this. They seem to me to be the most "vanilla" of the SMAX factions and the initial starting techs give them a great boost toward IA. The probe bug is a PIA but otherwise they seem fine to me

[Kirov]

Originally posted by Flubber


I don't see why you say this. They seem to me to be the most "vanilla" of the SMAX factions and the initial starting techs give them a great boost toward IA. The probe bug is a PIA but otherwise they seem fine to me

"Vanilla" is bad. Imagine a 'plain' faction which has no bonuses nor maluses, just 'tabula rasa'. It'd be handicapped compared to others.

Likewise, the sole power of Angels lies in your and your opponent's probing skills. Denied access to enemy's bases, you're doomed. Sure, the price of his units/bases is 25% lower, but your opponent is likely to have 25% stronger economy.

But I agree, their starting techs are very nice.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kirov


"Vanilla" is bad. Imagine a 'plain' faction which has no bonuses nor maluses, just 'tabula rasa'. It'd be handicapped compared to others.

Likewise, the sole power of Angels lies in your and your opponent's probing skills. Denied access to enemy's bases, you're doomed. Sure, the price of his units/bases is 25% lower, but your opponent is likely to have 25% stronger economy.

But I agree, their starting techs are very nice.

Only the uni and morganites are favored to beat them to IA and with a cash pop they can run planned to advantage before the FM switch. Early industry and growth mean they will have their first set of expansion bases planted before any other faction .

I see no reason why anyone would be NECESSARILY 25% stronger than them in anything.

It is also very difficult to avoid being probed if a faction is trying to probe you from the outset (up until airpower when it gets tough to sneak past air patrols)

Lets agree to disagree then