What's up with the Expansion Factions?

[Littiz]

I'm not one of the gurus out here, but to me Aki's -1 Growth is a nasty nuisance.
I mean, if you are the Hive and cannot run Demo, in order to pop boom you have to go GA, but at least you're spared the cons of Demo.
While as Aki, you are forced to run Demo *and* induce Golden Ages.
In this sense, the -1 GROWTH penalty effectively acts as a -2.

Yet I love the faction, one of my favourites for the concept

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Littiz
I'm not one of the gurus out here, but to me Aki's -1 Growth is a nasty nuisance.

I find it the same and don't generally find a do that well with the growth challenged factions.

Originally posted by Littiz
In this sense, the -1 GROWTH penalty effectively acts as a -2.

I'm not sure what you mean. Going Demo is usually not all that bad and is the default position for many players with a lot of factions.

[Senethro]

Hmmmm, I don't know. I just tried the Cyborgs again for the first time in ages and am having reasonable success with them. I did 70% labs early on, got a nice early IA, switched to Planned/Wealth, built PTS, got 2.5 bureacracy limits worth of bases then impact rovered my neighbours.

Where to take it from there, I'm not sure. Ordinarily I would rig for pop-boom and enter builder mode until fusion. With the Cyborgs I suspect Demo/FM/Wealth 90% labs plays a big part of staying in the game. We'll see.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Flubber


I find it the same and don't generally find a do that well with the growth challenged factions.

Not to offend anyone, but isn't this because you guys are a little singleminded ? Aki can't popboom, well, so it is, so why try to use popboom strategy thinking on her ? Her support, research and spoils of war are pretty useful, and actually, her growth isn't that weak again. I often curse myself when I am missing CP's because I forget to start production of them instead of stockpile when making 2x2 ICS'ing.

What I mean is use the factions advantages instead of trying to force a strategy they aren't suited for - noone would play Svensgaard as Uni, unless of course they want to make a challenge

Oh, and I don't wear any guru hat, I'm just a humble SMAX player

[Littiz]

I'm not sure what you mean. Going Demo is usually not all that bad and is the default position for many players with a lot of factions.

The reasoning is just that in order to popboom Aki has to correctly set 4 variables instead of 3, and this seems the worst case. Demo is nice of course, but less flexibility is generally bad, I'd say.

Aki can't popboom, well, so it is, so why try to use popboom strategy thinking on her ? Her support, research and spoils of war are pretty useful, and actually, her growth isn't that weak again.

So far I've only played as a builder, strickly non-ICS (not my cup of tea, really), and I got the impression that popbooming is essential to any builder game.
Maybe you won't make it your core strategy with Aki, but you'll have to arrange some booms anyway...

[CEO Aaron]

IMO, only the aliens are overpowered. The other factions are pretty well balanced out of the box. I've done pretty well with some of the factions, though I've always had trouble with industry challenged Pirates and Planet Cult. If anything, I'd say the new factions are more unbalanced between themselves than in comparison to the old factions, but even then such issues will easily be rectified by a good run of pod pops or cagey play.

So far I've only played as a builder, strickly non-ICS (not my cup of tea, really), and I got the impression that popbooming is essential to any builder game.
Maybe you won't make it your core strategy with Aki, but you'll have to arrange some booms anyway...

Yes, the population boom is the rock solid foundation to all Builder play, but even boom-challenged factions can still pop boom, they just have to make greater sacrifices while the do so. More income is diverted to Psych, and less to labs and credits. Which is fine if your planning skills are such that all your bases are ready to pop boom in the same short window of time.

But builder is hardly the only option available to Aki. She's got a great momentum bonus, namely tech steal, and while she lacks any innate military advantages, her improved research and efficiency means she can stay in inefficient militaristic SE choices at less of a disadvantage than her rivals.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by BlackCat


Not to offend anyone,

Why would I be offended-- you just expressed an opinion.

Of course I could challenge you to a duel . . . impact rovers at dawn ??

Originally posted by BlackCat


, but isn't this because you guys are a little singleminded ?

Perhaps a little but for me its not the lack of popboom that bugs me so much as that extra couple of turns it takes to get the base to grow to size 2 to get the next base running. I just have visions of my oppponents founding their bases two turns quicker than me and then their next wave 4 turns earlier and so on. I know the difference is less than can be made up for with one nut bonus but still it bugs me.

Oh and doing less well with the factions in SP is my own subjective judgement - The AI gets crushed regardless

Originally posted by BlackCat



Oh, and I don't wear any guru hat, I'm just a humble SMAX player

No offense but there was little possibility that I would think of you as a guru. You write some interesting and good posts, as do a bunch of other people

[Flubber]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
IMO, only the aliens are overpowered. The other factions are pretty well balanced out of the box. I've done pretty well with some of the factions, though I've always had trouble with industry challenged Pirates and Planet Cult. If anything, I'd say the new factions are more unbalanced between themselves than in comparison to the old factions, but even then such issues will easily be rectified by a good run of pod pops or cagey play.

The cult is hurt by the fact that natives are nowhere as strong as I thionk the designers might have intended. That siad , I think they compete well on smaller and fungusy planets--- ON large planets they tend to struggle more.

I wouldn't mind having the cult on a tiny planet any time at all.


Even on larger planets I have doing ok by beelining to doc flex, believe it or not to get an, IOD army. The idea is that you can never even come close in the race to IA so you don't try to. If you can subjugate an AI pretty early, pick up a ton of AAs and instabuilds, and worm farm for lots of cash, there are possibilities. I still don't love your chances against a uni/drone/Hive builder with lots of space and unimpeded economic development but it could be a fun game to play.

Frankly I get tired of the dogmatic or methodical play methods where there is only one possible best way to play (even if the ideas is accurate, it isn't that interesting

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Flubber


Why would I be offended-- you just expressed an opinion.

Of course I could challenge you to a duel . . . impact rovers at dawn ??

No problem, just move your rovers to the rolling/rainy tile below the rocky one with a monolith and a fungus tile to the left and right - you know you are in the right spot when you see the sun rise behind the monlith

Perhaps a little but for me its not the lack of popboom that bugs me so much as that extra couple of turns it takes to get the base to grow to size 2 to get the next base running. I just have visions of my oppponents founding their bases two turns quicker than me and then their next wave 4 turns earlier and so on. I know the difference is less than can be made up for with one nut bonus but still it bugs me.

Then you are bugging yourself with something that you can't make a difference on. Why care abaout you are growing slower if you research faster and can hit harder ?

Oh and doing less well with the factions in SP is my own subjective judgement - The AI gets crushed regardless

That I for certain don't doubt

No offense but there was little possibility that I would think of you as a guru. You write some interesting and good posts, as do a bunch of other people

Nah, it was merely aimed against Littiz's comment about gurus - I surely didn't want him to belive I was one

[Zoetrope]

In Civ2, I didn't popboom: I didn't know how. So I could beat Emperor, but at best came second to the AI in Deity.

SMAC/X is an easier game (or maybe the difficulty levels are milder) than Civ2, so no matter what faction I play I am almost always (barring a woeful start) able to easily beat the AI in Transcend without popbooming until I (inevitably) build the Cloning Vats.

So I disagree with the contention that popbooming is a must in single player.

Multiplayer is probably an entirely different proposition, but I have sadly little experience there.

With the above in mind, the most difficult factions for me to play are the Cult and the Spartans, precisely because my style of play is to build every facility everywhere and to try to beat the AI to every Project. As this requires decent industrial capacity, I romp home most comfortably as Domai.

In any case, I rely heavily on terraforming and supply crawlers. So I always strive to snag the Weather Paradigm, and I will get frustrated if Industrial Automation is delayed for whatever reason. (Reasons include the game not presenting it promptly, my faction being slow in research, and/or pressing military threats.)

Nonetheless I find the Believers easy to play (I like support bonuses). They're also fun neighbors. (For one thing, they're pretty easy to manipulate diplomatically.)

Re the Data Angels, I have to say that (in SP) they are slightly underpowered. In Trascend, their AI usually techs well up to midgame, but other than that they never become a dangerous powerhouse. When playing as the Angels, I never get the sense of being a strong faction: I always seem to be playing catch-up.

The PROBE rollover bug is something I hadn't noticed in SP, likely because the AI is not by default good at sea probes: but against a real opponent it would definitely hurt.

Btw, I have found the AI's Morgan to be very, very good at exploiting his cash advantages to fight a defensive war using probe teams. At midgame I once captured 5 of his bases, but he immediately bought them back. So I had to conquer them again, and again, and again, each time "donating" more and more troops to him. I had to bring enormous forces to bear to finally crush him. That's when I first learnt the value of bringing my own probe teams, and plenty of them, along with my military.

Apropos the Data Angels, the example of Morgan suggests that the Angels would be stronger if they had more cash with which to subvert their foes.

So perhaps the Angels need an ECONOMY boost?

Or even Immunity (term?) to the disadvantages of Free Market - they seem like the kind of faction that would have no problems with a completely open market, and would not be especially exploitive of the environment.

Incidentally, I likewise often think that Morgan should NOT have a Police penalty in Free Market. When doing what comes naturally, coercion is unnecessary!

One thing that games like Alpha Centauri need is a research and production bonus when factions utililise their specific strengths (if they have any in a particular category).

For example, the Cult should have quicker research and production of Native Life, as the Spartans should for Morale technologies and facilities; Angels' probe teams should be cheaper; the Pirates should be quicker to build sea vessels of all kinds (navy, sea colonies, sea formers, sea supply convoys, sea probes) and sea improvements (all sea terraforming operations).

In general, factions that are handicapped by being too specialised, should have significant research and production bonuses in those specialties, so that they can effectively exploit them, even though remaining handicapped in other areas of research and production.

Master of Orion 1 implemented something like that, so there are no technical obstacles. (Granted MOO's races were unbalanced, but that is an issue of degree not principle.)

What we do now is to compensate specialised factions in areas unrelated to their specialty, thereby spoiling their theme.

Also in the current scheme, many factional advantages are diminished by later technology. For example, what good is a support advantage once clean units are cheap? What's the good of high morale once all enemy forces are elite?

This basically condemns a faction to usefulness only in the early game, which in turn requires a small map. On huge maps, it's like placing the home of the aliens in "War of the Worlds" not on Mars but on a planet so remote that by the time they can reach Earth they face not WW1 technology but Gene Roddenberry's Star Fleet circa AD 3000.

Strong, sustained advantages in their specialisation (of the sort that cannot be replicated or obsoleted by technology) seem to me to constitute the only way that specialised factions can be made formidable while remaining in character.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by BlackCat


No problem, just move your rovers to the rolling/rainy tile below the rocky one with a monolith and a fungus tile to the left and right - you know you are in the right spot when you see the sun rise behind the monlith

hey you just described the exact same type of killing field I described in the d=me thread

THanks but I'll stay on my rocky tile---

( Isn't it funny that smart humans would neevr venture down in to the killing zone-- but the AI would stack 5 4-1-2s right there under your guns)

[MeiRen]

Zoetrope, its a question of how you reach the late game, and what your board position looks like when you get there. Lal probably reaches there with a small number of big cities, Miriam with a ton of conquered stuff. That in turn shapes the techs and decisions you'll learn and the way the board ends up.

I think you're hitting on a general problem. Which is, SMAC often has a pretty crappy late game, since by the time you get to the high tech advances its pretty clear who is goinig to win.

[CEO Aaron]

In single player, true, however multiplayer is not always so cut and dried.

[nhs_boy]

Give the Pirates cheaper ships and faster sea terraforming, and they'll likely crush any game that doesn't immediately align against them... They're already on the edge of being broken as it is!
Maybe a small *penalty* to land stuff instead?

[Senethro]

Originally posted by nhs_boy
Give the Pirates cheaper ships and faster sea terraforming, and they'll likely crush any game that doesn't immediately align against them... They're already on the edge of being broken as it is!
Maybe a small *penalty* to land stuff instead?

Not even close. The pirates are one of the weakest factions. Perhaps you could post up a save game showing these broken pirates?