Making shell units with clean reactor...

[Leon Trotsky]

Does it? I thought it worked from both left and right; first it turns a drone, then creates a talent, then turns the second drone, and so on.

[Kataphraktoi]

I have tinkered a LOT with my settings and if you have more WORKED tiles you will frequently find green outperforms FM when you have large sprawling empires

OK. i dont use large sprawling empires.

That GA +2 econ aproach is what i used in my try of the fast transcend game,and whenever i do it again it will be the only way to go speedwise.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi


OK. i dont use large sprawling empires.
.

It can also be very effective when conquering enemiew far afield-- The extra efficiency means they start producing quicker (often your AI conquests are not set up well for crawling energy)

Your opposite alternative is that sometimes I will just start selling off AI improvements for the cash and to avoid paying maintenance. Why the heck would I ever want to keep an energybank in a base that produces 0 energy due to inefficiency losses??

[Kataphraktoi]

Sure i use it then, and i do use it alot. but not for police(mostly +4 effic for sliders, i have never seen green outperform FM, like i said though i keep my empire smaller)

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi
Sure i use it then, and i do use it alot. but not for police(mostly +4 effic for sliders, i have never seen green outperform FM, like i said though i keep my empire smaller)

Well Green CAN outperform FM

As for not using it for police?? As soon as you switch to green from FM for whatever reason, don't you look at every base to reallocate your specialists? The working pattern that works best while in FM may not be the same as the one that works best in green .. . You may be able to make more engineers instead of ones that have psych for instance.

Assessing the difference isn't simply a case of of taking a 10 second look at the difference after the SE switch. Its a fair bit of work to reconfigure your empire before you can fully assess things-- ( and I HATE it when it turns out the existing setting is still the better choice and I end up switching everything back )

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Leon Trotsky
Does it? I thought it worked from both left and right; first it turns a drone, then creates a talent, then turns the second drone, and so on.

Psych is applied first, from left to right. Then drone suppressing is applied from left to right of the drones (which as you know congregate on the right). There are plenty of times where a certain level of psych will produce a result where a majority of the citizens are talents, but there is no GA because there are a few drones left over. Police etc. can turn this into a GA by supressing those drones.

[Kataphraktoi]

Your probably right flubber, though in some of my recent games i do not believe it could outperform for what i needed it to do, thats up to my style and most of the time i can see your point as making sense

and I HATE it when it turns out the existing setting is still the better choice and I end up switching everything back

im to scared to try. hate MM

[Commy]

Originally posted by Flubber

Well Green CAN outperform FM

Unless you are playing Morgan, there is no way to get +4 economy without free market...it is impossible...

Assume the empire being used for these examples is one of ICS strategy...each citizen is a specialist, and 2 boreholes are being crawled per base (for the minerals)...

Barring that, if you do green, yes, you will retain a high efficiency rating...however, the most +ECON you can achieve is +3...with the above empire, you really won't be losing energy to inefficiency anyway, so the only advantage of +4 or higher efficiency is SE flexibility...

If you do free market, you are now able to achieve +5 economy...however, you're efficiency rating cannot be higher than +2 unless you drop free market, wealth, or Eudaimonia...

+ 4 EFFIC is the optimum choice because it allows using the sliders without penalty

+ 4 ECON is the optimum choice because you don't have to do wealth, but still get a healthy amount of commerce and bonuses to base square (the advantage of +4 econ over +3 econ is much greater than +5 over +4)

Simply put, it is impossible to achieve +4 efficiency and +4 economy at the same time unless you have an inherent faction SE bonus (such as Morgan or Aki)...You could achieve +3 economy and +4 effic, but you'd be better off with +4 economy OR +4 efficiency...

Quite frankly what we have is a paradox...high economy yields lots of energy, but most is lost to innefficiency...high EFFIC prevents energy loss, but doesn't give you raw energy in the first place...

Therefore, the deciding factor is SE flexibility...since no SE combination can give you a high quality ECON and quality EFFIC setting, you're best off having high EFFIC so atleast you can mess around with your handy sliders...bump up on research and things like that...

This is mostly why I don't like free market...given, I don't use crawlers, so the ability to use police is a bit more enticing, but it seems to me that doing a green economy (with demo and knowledge, later cybernetic) is more beneficial than free market and wealth...

[Kataphraktoi]

I retract my comments about green not outperforming FM. i have a game im in atm where even only a SE switch has a performance in favour of green

[CEO Aaron]

Maybe I'm a bit lazy, but I find that my switch to green isn't based on an idea of what will produce more energy or income, but simply that I'm ready to put my military in the field, and no longer wish to put up with pacifism drones.

Once the armada is unleashed, I stay in Fundy/Green/Wealth for the balance of the game, to retain my industry bonus without sacrificing unit morale.

I'm also not a big fan of getting radical with the SE slider. I can see how it might be useful to tweak your tech rate if you're trying to blast your way through to Transcendence, but there comes a point where I just want to crush my enemies' impertinence, tech be damned.

[Kataphraktoi]

Sure thats a reason, and thats why i am green\planned in a number of my PBEM. The discussion seemed to revolve around green's economic merits, so i stuck within that.

Once the armada is unleashed, I stay in Fundy/Green/Wealth for the balance of the game, to retain my industry bonus without sacrificing unit morale.

You sound a little but like me at that point-when i start attacking, its all about minerals,morale, and a nonstop assault towards where ever the enemy is strongest. Later Power with cloning vats say would be favoured though if i could get it, also view Knowledge favourably in a war, to avoid wealth -morale penalty.

Im not sure why manipulating sliders would do anything bad, and certainly speed up the process of killing the bad guys. Whats wrong with some more techs for better military\military production? Or maxed out econ and waves of probes. Heck im using a 50\50\0 in darsnans Jan challenge to keep the drones down. messing with sliders is handy

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Commy


Unless you are playing Morgan, there is no way to get +4 economy without free market...it is impossible...

Assume the empire being used for these examples is one of ICS strategy...each citizen is a specialist, and 2 boreholes are being crawled per base (for the minerals)...

Your base assumption favors FM. In green you can more easily WORK those two boreholes and use the two crawlers you free to crawl more energy.

Any time you assume ALL specialists, you have almost eliminated the effects of higher efficiency.

ohh and I consider crawlering a borehole to be an immense waste

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi
I retract my comments about green not outperforming FM. i have a game im in atm where even only a SE switch has a performance in favour of green

Told ya

Then if you work a tile or two extra you might produce even more-- particularly if you can work a borehole of even a forested tile -- Assuming TFs and HFs, you might be able to free a bunch of crawlers from crawling food and swiitch them to energy as well

[Flubber]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
Maybe I'm a bit lazy, but I find that my switch to green isn't based on an idea of what will produce more energy or income, but simply that I'm ready to put my military in the field, and no longer wish to put up with pacifism drones.

Once the armada is unleashed, I stay in Fundy/Green/Wealth for the balance of the game, to retain my industry bonus without sacrificing unit morale.

I'm also not a big fan of getting radical with the SE slider. I can see how it might be useful to tweak your tech rate if you're trying to blast your way through to Transcendence, but there comes a point where I just want to crush my enemies' impertinence, tech be damned.

That is a side benefit-- war is MUCH easier-- Although I often stay in Demo when warring and just switch out of wealth to knowledge-- I lose a bit on industry but generally finf the high efficiency means I have cash for rudhing to compensate. Usung trained shells and having the facilities that modify morale usually means its pretty easy to get elites. From a figting point of view, the only downside is low probe rating but if you are killing instead of probe-controlling, you are still ok. (my typical empire produces a LOT of minerals so support is arely an issue)

[Net Warrior]

Originally posted by Flubber


...Usung trained shells and having the facilities that modify morale usually means its pretty easy to get elites...

Aha, so the thread finally gets back to shell units