Sid Meier Interview

[Mart]

Materials for making a space elevator on the Moon presently exist. And it is in technological capabilities to do so. However, compared to Earth, Moon has like no atmosphere and around 16% gravity at the surface. It is though possible to lift raw materials from the Moon to the orbit in much cheaper way than launch it from Earth. This would make building orbital structures very cheap compared to todays prices.

[binTravkin]

if predictions of that space elevator are not too premature.

No, they are not. The guys say we have all the needed tech in 10 yrs and Elevator up and running in 10 more.

I think it makes very much sense as it will bring down Earth-to-Orbit transition costs to 1% of the existing (not my guess, but analysis from some experts).
In such cases when a vast economical atvantage is on the stake, there's some threshold after which everyone is going mad on the project because who first gets there gets the best profit and advantage for further development as well.

[binTravkin]

Materials for making a space elevator on the Moon presently exist. And it is in technological capabilities to do so. However, compared to Earth, Moon has like no atmosphere and around 16% gravity at the surface. It is though possible to lift raw materials from the Moon to the orbit in much cheaper way than launch it from Earth. This would make building orbital structures very cheap compared to todays prices.

However, it's no use to make it on the Moon - you will anyways have to transport things to there.

You could say that why not build all the things there where the contrargument is that you would need to first get the industry and personell to there, etc etc like in a magic ring.

I don't expect anyone building it on Moon while it has not been built on Earth.

I also expect that the next Planet where to build it(after Moon) will most probably be Venus. Many people think that it holds considerable resources and contrary to NASA's official meaning it is also the best planet for human settlement having approx. the same gravity and lots of material on board to terraform it to our needs including material for Earthlike atmosphere, water (if it's not already there) and many other organical substances a human or the industry needs.

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by binTravkin
In such cases when a vast economical atvantage is on the stake, there's some threshold after which everyone is going mad on the project because who first gets there gets the best profit and advantage for further development as well.

O, I would love to see such an elevator be finished in the next 20-25 years. Perhaps I could have an orbital holiday then before I retire.

Originally posted by binTravkin
I also expect that the next Planet where to build it(after Moon) will most probably be Venus. Many people think that it holds considerable resources and contrary to NASA's official meaning it is also the best planet for human settlement having approx. the same gravity and lots of material on board to terraform it to our needs including material for Earthlike atmosphere, water (if it's not already there) and many other organical substances a human or the industry needs.

As much resources as Venus might have, it's simply no use terraforming that planet if only for the daylength. And I suspect the rapidly increase in atmospheric pressure would be quite a technical difficulty to overcome for an elevator cable. Hell, if a cable can be constructed that can take that much pressure, they better dip it in Jupiters' atmosphere and collect He³ there. Much better for spaceship fuel/fusion powerplants once fusion power is possible.

[Kataphraktoi]

/me says no to Dragonball in SMAC

dont worry there wont be any dbz in *my* mod

Imagine a human able of:

1.being 100 times as tough as steel or flexible as water - MatterEditation on cellar level (nano + matter Edit), but that would be possible only after matter editation on laboratory level, thus not on L10 as matter editation is techwise, but probably on L11 or so.

2.lifting himself into space - Antigravity on cellar level (also likely to come some time after lab antigravity)

3.Breathing in space, erm sorry, he even't won't need to breed, because he's feeding from Quantum Power plants sized as small as mitochondrius in our cells.

etcetc

sounds like bin is adding dbz though.

seriously.you can think that without cracking up bin?
most sci fi like this is junk. i like smac sci fi prescisly because it ignores this view

As much resources as Venus might have, it's simply no use terraforming that planet if only for the daylength. And I suspect the rapidly increase in atmospheric pressure would be quite a technical difficulty to overcome for an elevator cable. Hell, if a cable can be constructed that can take that much pressure, they better dip it in Jupiters' atmosphere and collect He³ there. Much better for spaceship fuel/fusion powerplants once fusion power is possible.

although terraforming is nonsense. cant terraform another planet,we can barely do any forming to our own!

think someone(s) here has dangerously high levels of nitrous oxide in their house

[Senethro]

All it takes is self-assembling tools, whether biological or technological, and a huge investment of time and energy.

Theres a large ball of hydrogen in the middle of our solar system undergoing constant fusion reactions. Interstellar distances mean we're not going anywhere soon, so is it really so impossible?

[binTravkin]

most sci fi like this is junk. i like smac sci fi prescisly because it ignores this view

Well, the reality is that interstellar voyages might be much much further from this moment as some would expect.
At the same time populations are growing.
And they're growing fast enough for wise people to start worrying where will all those chinese, indians and african kids go.
Earth is big enough to support 3-10 times of the current population (by different estimates), but come on, would you really like to live 50cm away from your neighbour and within reach of arm to next one?!

That's why sci-fi is sci-fiction, but sci-reality is what's going on and what's going on is we're running out of space and materials quickly, folks.

As much resources as Venus might have, it's simply no use terraforming that planet if only for the daylength. And I suspect the rapidly increase in atmospheric pressure would be quite a technical difficulty to overcome for an elevator cable. Hell, if a cable can be constructed that can take that much pressure, they better dip it in Jupiters' atmosphere and collect He³ there. Much better for spaceship fuel/fusion powerplants once fusion power is possible.

1.It is possible to change Venus's atmosphere by inventing a special bacteria for it. And I do not think just changing it to needed percentage of oxygen and other parts, but also changing the pressure.
"Surplus" atmosphere can be made into liquids or even solids and sublimed to the surface.
It is only a question of BioEngineering or BioMarchinery to be able to do it. Nano could also fix the problem if it comes out first, before both latters.

2.With the physical and chemical properties described for the SElevator material pressure is little of a problem to them. Gravity might be, however, and that's why Jupiter is more problematic.

3.Furthermore - it's very hard to think about Jupiter as a habitable planet, while Venus only has to undergo terraforming plus some daylenght fixing.

4.The daylenght is something around 120 Earth days IIRC (224 days is one day, 243 is one year, but they must be halved because it's spins against rotation vector) and I think it's the least problem of all. Possible solutions would some system for rapid air exchange, so atmosphere in the night area get's heated up with air from day area, which is in turn cooled down.
Also artifically creating dense cloud cover could be very beneficial for both daytime (less heat) and nighttime (less warmth lost).
Some crazy people have even proposed making it spin faster by some nuclear means, but I consider it a fiction not speculations about possible reality.
Probably when we have artifical gravity, we can make it work.


Also - on the fusion energy topic Geomeodder touched:
I think Mercury is a good place to collect raw solar power (solar constant ~10 times bigger).
Morgan would surely like to live there, even if he'd need to live beneath the surface in artifical environment..

[Kataphraktoi]

bin,the solar energy collectable in space is < any planets solar energy.

That's why sci-fi is sci-fiction, but sci-reality is what's going on and what's going on is we're running out of space and materials quickly, folks.

we are not. what we are doing however is wasting materiels quickly to the point where they will be exhausted. ive seen some models for efficent housing and cities devolopment,and we could have 100 billion people onbourd without to much congestion.

and fusion power,once workable,will provide nearly unlimited energy. remember we already have fusion reacters,but that the power needed to start\sustain the reaction is bigger than the output. this will change

[binTravkin]

bin,the solar energy collectable in space is < any planets solar energy.

And the physical ground of this is?

we are not. what we are doing however is wasting materiels quickly to the point where they will be exhausted. ive seen some models for efficent housing and cities devolopment,and we could have 100 billion people onbourd without to much congestion.

100 billion?
Okay - now see how big the landmass on Earth is and divide it by this number and see how much land you have on one person.
I suppose the result wouldn't be something you'd like.

and fusion power,once workable,will provide nearly unlimited energy. remember we already have fusion reacters,but that the power needed to start\sustain the reaction is bigger than the output. this will change

At some point people might still come to harvesting solar power.

And energy does not fill all your needs, does it?
Space is the problem.

[binTravkin]

SURFACE AREA
  Land                                 1.48x10^8 km^2
  Sea                                  3.62x10^8 km^2
  Total                                5.10x10^8 km^2

(from http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/phys_props_earth.html)

1.48x10^8 / 1x10^11 = 1.48^-3 km2 = 1.48x10^3 m2 = 1480m2

It's a square of approx. 38x38 for one person.

Now take out all the uninhabitable areas (mountains, arctic snows, industrially used areas etc)..

[Chaos Theory]

The world is three-dimensional. Ever read The Caves of Steel?

[Kataphraktoi]

And the physical ground of this is?

hmm,lets see. oh yes,that energy has to travel through space and atomosphere to even get there. not to mention the benefits of zero g and the solar collecters in space would be much more efficent by being as close as you wanted.


k,4,800,000,000 divided by 100,000,000,000 people is .048 or 48 meters per person,correct?

some of the city designs ive seen had 2000 people per mi2 and with all the needed stuff,along with theater and parkland. i believe protoype designs were tested in the midwest

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by Cataphract887
some of the city designs ive seen had 2000 people per mi2 and with all the needed stuff,along with theater and parkland. i believe protoype designs were tested in the midwest

You can stack as many people on a square mile as you want, but that doesn't negate the fact that those very people still need a certain amount of open land for agriculture.

Also, do not forget that a biosphere solely committed to keeping a number of people alive and entertained, isn't a viable one. There are too many domestically used plants/animals who need non-domesticated plants/animals to keep them alive/healthy. Too much pressure on that, and the whole rimram will collapse in due time.

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by binTravkin
1.It is possible to change Venus's atmosphere by inventing a special bacteria for it. And I do not think just changing it to needed percentage of oxygen and other parts, but also changing the pressure.
"Surplus" atmosphere can be made into liquids or even solids and sublimed to the surface.
It is only a question of BioEngineering or BioMarchinery to be able to do it. Nano could also fix the problem if it comes out first, before both latters.

For terraforming Venus, a well established space transportation system is necessary as well. How do you think the planet could be filled with water again? At present, not a single drop can be found there, water vapor has since long disappeared from the Planet. So at the very least a number of ice-planetoids must be brought into the planets' atmosphere after the heat dissipates.

3.Furthermore - it's very hard to think about Jupiter as a habitable planet, while Venus only has to undergo terraforming plus some daylenght fixing.

Where did I imply to colonize/terraform Jupiter? I merely offered a way to mine the planet for a useful substance.

4.The daylenght is something around 120 Earth days IIRC (224 days is one day, 243 is one year, but they must be halved because it's spins against rotation vector) and I think it's the least problem of all. Possible solutions would some system for rapid air exchange, so atmosphere in the night area get's heated up with air from day area, which is in turn cooled down.
Also artifically creating dense cloud cover could be very beneficial for both daytime (less heat) and nighttime (less warmth lost).

The daylength alone would make the place not very welcome to humans, even if it proves possible to make the planet inhabitable. You may sound confident in our (future) ability to create the necessary weather pattern, but I'm not so sure about that. Planets are big!

Also - on the fusion energy topic Geomeodder touched:
I think Mercury is a good place to collect raw solar power (solar constant ~10 times bigger).
Morgan would surely like to live there, even if he'd need to live beneath the surface in artifical environment..

Yep, solar energy is a good way to collect the power needed for letting our daily households and industrial facilities run, but won't help you much for propelling space craft, slow-paced solar sailing excluded of course.

[Kataphraktoi]

but that doesn't negate the fact that those very people still need a certain amount of open land for agriculture.

food isnt and shouldnt be grown in population areas. instead the best areas should be devoted solely to food production.how many farms are there on the us east coast?

Also, do not forget that a biosphere solely committed to keeping a number of people alive and entertained, isn't a viable one. There are too many domestically used plants/animals who need non-domesticated plants/animals to keep them alive/healthy. Too much pressure on that, and the whole rimram will collapse in due time.

so what? the only species that need servive is the ones that assist humans.basic trees plants and domesticly grown animals,who will soon be geneitcly engineered or already are. these animals could also be cloned
the other plants can grow where humans havnt besides some engineered bacteria to make the soil productive for life and fill the roles of various missing animals,should be good

You can stack as many people on a square mile as you want,

i apolagize for the mis information.that was for two acres(IIRC). however it depended on other such structures ajacent,it couldnt have 2000 people and be free-standing.

that may sound insane,but the plan didnt look that unappealing to live in. i will attempt to find some diagrams of this later.i think they did some stuff in the 60's along that line