story reasons for only one special project

[dacole]

Greetings, I was wondering what reasons people have come up with for there being only one of the various special projects. For example why can't the other factions copy the virtual world once it is built, or the citizens defense force? Lack of knowledge or a special nessecary resource?

[Maniac]

game balance
There really is no good reason I guess.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Maniac
game balance
There really is no good reason I guess.

Ya since game balance would be better if multiple projects could be built-- As it stands, the advantage of being ahead just gets multipled

I can't think of a good reason for most of them either

[Chaos Theory]

It gives an incentive to sacrifice in other areas to complete the project first. In other words, players bid on the projects. Balance only suffers when no sacrifice is needed.

[Chaos Theory]

Some rambling:

Right now, projects each cost a fixed amount (subject to Industry), with more powerful projects both costing more and coming later in the tech tree. To build a project first, a player needs to obtain its tech. Sometimes, this is trivial (Weather Paradigm) and other times is a chore (Planetary Energy Grid).

Assuming that a project's prereqs are trivial, players effectively bid for it by sacrificing a base's current, future, and in the case of cashing in crawlers, past production to build the project. Other bases can also sacrifice, in the form of building crawlers or contributing energy to a hurry.
Usually, finishing a project faster entails a larger sacrifice, as workers are switched to mineral-rich but otherwise-poor tiles, productive crawlers are sacrificed, and ECs are spent at the poor hurry rate of 1 mineral/4 ECs. Thus, players can sacrifice more to place stronger bids for the project, even altering their bids after initially placing them.

As the cost of a project is fixed but an empire's total productivity rises with time, these losses become less by comparison over time, so that eventually someone will claim even inferior projects.

Since production can be transferred from project to project, failed bids, like in a normal auction, are not charged against their bidders.

If a project's prereqs are not trivial, one player will likely meet them before everyone else. At this point, if he has sacrificed sufficient past production in the form of crawlers and banked ECs, he can immediately claim the project. If his past sacrifices were large, then this is balanced, but very often 300 minerals (reduced by Industry) for a mid-game project is just a turn or two of production, which is further cut down by artifacts, pod-rushed hog crawlers, hurried crawlers, and upgraded crawlers. The smaller the sacrifice needed, the more likely the player who meets the prereq first will build the project, thus overemphasizing tech.

Central to all this is that in the mid and late game, the effective cost of building a project is far too low, and is even lower for stronger players. Building a project should be a major undertaking, not ten crawlers.

Therefore, the rudiments of a proposal: projects should not cost minerals, but rather turns of production (minerals, ECs, labs, growth, the works) from your entire empire. The number of turns can be influenced by the year, social engineering settings, and perhaps resources such as ECs. Crawlers, instead of being used directly for the project, might be cashable to allow 30 minerals of normal production (or something along those lines) at a base, allowing crucial bases to continue to operate from stored supplies. A project could be aborted in an emergency, but the lost turns would be gone. Switching to another project definitely needs to remain in the game in some form. Producing more than one project at once would be absolutely impossible, at least without end-game tech.

[dacole]

Wow I was misunderstood, but still some interesting responses thanks! Suppose you were writing an alpha centauri story and you wanted an explanation for why only one secret project could be built, what are the best roleplaying explanations that have come up for this?

[Maniac]

I understood your question, but as said I just think you can't come up with some full-proof roleplay reason.

For the 'Planet' secret projects (xenoempathy dome, manifold harmonics...) you could say only one faction can form a deep bond with Planet. For 'probe' projects (Hunter-Seeker, Nethack Terminus) you could say that if you're the first to develop some software technology and spread it over Chiron, you can always keep a technological edge to your favour in the espionage game.

For others such as the Cloning Vats or the Human Genome Project I doubt one can come up with a good reason though.

[Chaos Theory]

The GURPS Alpha Centauri book explains it as that only one faction would happen to stumble upon the mindset or opportunity to build each SP. For example, the Weather Paradigm was seen by all but one faction as a waste of resources. The one faction spent lots of resources examining Planet's weather and climate, and reaped rewards for it later. Only one faction took holographic entertainment far enough to create the Virtual World, and so on. But, yeah, once the rest of Planet sees the benefits, you'd expect them to copy the techniques.

[Ka Plewy]

How about the second one falls under the control of the first one, or isn't nearly as effective, because the first one has monopolized control over a particular resource?
There are all sorts of reasons, some you can base on the project.
One reason could be, if I were a meglomaniacal leader like any of the faction leaders (they all are, don't fool yourself, when compared to each other, of course some aren't), I wouldn't want to admit the value of any project built by another faction by attempting to copy it.
I could probably come up with reasons why copying wouldn't be effective, for each of them, if you want a hard non-rp reason, too.
Or, maybe they are all copied, but copied ineffectually, or copied only to maintain near parity, but never talked about, because they were the second.
If we look back the Wonder/SP paradigm originally designed in Civ, you'll notice that the wonders were real wonders of the world. The trouble with this, is that the game benefits of the wonders didn't necessarily match the real benefits of the wonder. Just because the pyramids didn't act as a granary in every Egyptian city in real life, didn't mean that the people in real life didn't receive some benefit from it. (I realize more cultures than the ancient Egyptian built pyramids, so don't gig me for not recognizing that).

[Infernis]

I've always considered that each project has a reason for not being able to be copied....Whether it be a link to Planet for the Green projects, a particular kind of software for the Nethack, HSA, or VW...Even specialized types of technology in the Cloning Vats...

The military SPs, however, don't offer up many reasons to not be copied...Every nation should have a Naval Headquarters, Aerospace and Landbased, as well...

But, for the most part, a bit of thought offers up a good reason why the Living Refinery can't be duplicated...It's a space-based outpost and one would assume that the faction that finishes it first uses its Council influence to keep it from being duplicated by the other factions...

"You don't build a second Cloudbased Academy and I'll stay out of space...Agreed?"


~I~

[binTravkin]

I love the smell of each-and-every-smac-concept-being-discussed-over-when-a-new-version-is-in-perspective in the mornings..

Will give my 2 pennies later..

[dacole]

? Sorry if this has been discussed before binTravkin didn't mean to annoy

[Kataphraktoi]

8th post up

I love the smell of each-and-every-smac-concept-being-discussed-over-when-a-new-version-is-in-perspective in the mornings..

you know it will always happan for any game on any forum anywhere

The trouble with this, is that the game benefits of the wonders didn't necessarily match the real benefits of the wonder. Just because the pyramids didn't act as a granary in every Egyptian city in real life, didn't mean that the people in real life didn't receive some benefit from it. (I realize more cultures than the ancient Egyptian built pyramids, so don't gig me for not recognizing that).

pyramids was kind of sort of realistic, as it was meant to represent how the egyptians had such fertile lands.

[#endgame]

In CivI, didn't it allow you to constantly switch governments?

[binTravkin]

? Sorry if this has been discussed before binTravkin didn't mean to annoy

A misunderstanding.

I didn't mean it's annoying, just wanted to read and post my opinion, but had no time, so posted an encouraging (was meant to be) message.