Mind Worm Capture Tactics

[Kataphraktoi]

i have reloaded in both iron man and normal play (iron man just makes reload harder ) and got different results from probe teams and worms.no moves were made rihgt after loading-nothing else

i dont really programm,but talking from civ3 experiance,the game generates a number and if you have save RNG on,you will always get the same result.otherwise you can reload and get different results

[Sikander]

Originally posted by livid imp
Sik, do you play with Iron Man on?

Nope.

[binTravkin]

I have never captured a worm with partial move points left.

I do it every second time when I capture any.

[livid imp]

Did some testing last night, and confirmed that the seed is saved if you are playing in Iron Man. So the outcome of random events will be the same every round no matter how many times a round is reloaded.
Conversely, if you play with Iron Man off, all events are re-randomized everytime you reload

[Kataphraktoi]

well,if you tested it i will set my belief that ironman can be reloaded aside....at least intil i test it myself,since i am curious(still have the .sav i remembered it on)

[Avimimus]

Originally posted by livid imp
A few things:

1. When programming a random number generation (to deterime if you capture a worm for example), you use what is called a seed value. This seed is typically based on something that constantly changes (such as your computers clock), but in SMAC, the seed is saved and is constant for each turn. That way you can't just keep reloading until that pod pops what you want it to or keep reloading until you capture a mindworm. Your son could have noticed this trend he mentions simply when reloading over and over again.

Edit: I later discovered the seed is saved only if you have Iron Man turned on

2. Here is a good tactic using worms to capture worms.
A wild worm typically wont attack a tame worm. So if it goes to a odds screen, leave it alone. End the turn, then try again, lather, rinse, repeat.

3. If you pop a pod and get surrounded by worms, try to capture one. If it goes to a odds screen, cancel and try the next worm in the loop, lather, rinse, repeat. Often once you have captured a worm the other (still wild) worms will leave you alone, so you can end the turn and continue to capture more worms.

Sorry, I don't understand "Odds screen"?

I have always been frustrated when playing as the Gaians. I have gotten a +4 Env rating or even +7 but I still kill all (90%) of the mind worms I try to capture.
It is very frustrating, I should be able to use non-lethal techniques.

Thank you

[livid imp]

Originally posted by Avimimus
Sorry, I don't understand "Odds screen"?

When you go to attack and you get the pop screen showing your odds of winning. There is an option in the preferences that says "Show odds before attacking"....turn that on.

Originally posted by Avimimus
I have always been frustrated when playing as the Gaians. I have gotten a +4 Env rating or even +7 but I still kill all (90%) of the mind worms I try to capture.
It is very frustrating, I should be able to use non-lethal techniques.

The max chance for capturing NL is (officially) 75% at a +3 Planet rating. Any Planet rating beyond that only helps with psi combat and eco damage. Now I say "officially" 75% because that is what it listsin the SE screen. In reality, it is no where near 75%. Start up a game, and write down every time you try to capture NL vs how many times you actually do. I definately don't capture 3 out of 4 MW I encounter. Thing is, if you did, you'd be very powerful, very fast. I have a feeling the 75% is a relic of a since changed design. I believe there is more the capture equation than we get to see. I guessimate the capture chance is closer to 15% per Planet rating (max +3).

[Flubber]

Its actually pretty accurate at 25% per planet rating (max 75%) MINUS some number based on the number of captured mindworms you have already.

At +3 you will very likely capture an early mindworm but once you have an army of several, it gets less and less likely-- I don't think it ever gets to a zero percent chance but I have found once I have 10 natives, I almost never capture any more.

Since there is no capture odds chart, it is impossible to know the exact odds from just playing but anecdotally, 75% seems right at +3, it "seems" to be around 50% once I have a couple or 3 mindworms and it seems to be less than 10% capture chance once I have 9 or 10.

[Chaos Theory]

There's a curious glitch with capturing mindworms - if you attack a stack, and succeed on a capture check, you capture the whole stack, no matter how tall. I've grabbed a dozen at a time with this feature, though once I have the dozen, I can't capture anything else until they're gone.

[RedFred]

Unless you have maxed out, it is a simple numbers game. Explore lots of fungus, with lots of units, especially near monoliths which attract them to a degree. Ruins are the best.

You seem to get better odds when attacking a worm with a non-native unit. With the 'fungus-as-roads' SP you can cover a lot of fungus with your elite rover.

I can confirm that you can capture with just a fraction of a movement point left.

[Chaos Theory]

IIRC, with the Xenoempathy dome, you no longer randomly find mind worms in fungus.

[Avimimus]

Thank you everyone! This explains a lot. I had an army of 15-20 mindworms at the time, most of which I had built. Does anyone have any idea where the maximum value of the army for the mindworm capture to work is?

It would be nice to see a late game improvement that would increase the effective size of the troops.
Or raise large numbers of mind worms but wipe out your economy permanently, a sort of going native event.

[livid imp]

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
with the Xenoempathy dome, you no longer randomly find mind worms in fungus.

I see people saying a lot, but I definately have run into worms in the fungus after getting the XD, up to 1 or 2 per turn near the Ruins. It definately is much safer to travel in the fungus after the XD, but not fool proof.

[smacksim1]

Flubber was the first to mention the essential point: Your chance of capturing worms decreases with how many you've captured, and this is only somewhat improved with improved planet ratings.

Planet +1: 1/2 chance of capturing the first worm (my guess).
Planet +1: 1/2+1 chance the second worm, etc..

Planet +2: 1+1/2+1 the first worm (2/3).
Planet+2: 1+1/2+1+1 the second (2/4), etc..

Secondly, I can definitely confirm: Xenoempapthy dome does NOT prevent random worms showing up, which is why its sometimes a pain in the rear if you automate 'go-to' orders in a sprawling empire with few garrisons. Formers will shortcut across fungus only to turn up MWs.

Also, confirm capture with 1/3 movement left. No big deal on a river or road square to test whether you can capture. And interestingly, you can capture a MW and still be bounced out of the fungus, especially with low movement.

Agree with Avimimus that there really should have been an option to 'go native' entirely, especially with Fungboy. I like the idea of giving up your economy to do so.....

[Senethro]

How does this affect Isles of the Deep?

As for all native styles, I would rather a conventional economy but fungboy and high planet rating give more fungus bonuses.

Mind worms themselves are also a little weak. Giving them some special abilities like disengage when in fungus, health/morale upgrade when eating farms/forests, Demon Boils can make Terror attacks vs. bases which consume population...

Things which make them suited to a guerilla army and successful long term harassment. Psi Combat means that even if they were cheaper in min cost, they're never going to form regular slugger units.