TBSs need a shot in the arm, here's how.

[unholythree]

I'd like to see a turn-based strategy game that used a grid of triangles to create a geodesic sphere and better simulate a planet. I think that would be about the sweetest thing ever! In fact I had a board game idea like kinda like that.

[livid imp]

Hey, now that is a nice idea....and it would break from standard form. No sticking your back up against the pole for defense.

[Ouro_827]

I'd just like to see a decent TBS out there, released within the past..... five years. I'm not a very big fan of WWII TBS, maybe because I'm bad at them. To show how weird I am, I still have and play Colinization. Look it up and download!

[livid imp]

But the whole point of wanting a new TBS released is new features/gameplay. Without those, we might as well just put some serious time into making new factions/maps/mods/etc. to augment what we have right now. This is a kind of 'wish list'. Hopefully someone out there is going to develop a new game and might stumble across this thread. Game companies wont always admit this (and shouldn't neccessarily), but a good portion of their production ideas they pull directly off of boards like this. If people weren't tried of the status quo, then games like SMAC would have never been developed. We all would have just been playing Civ1 all these years.

[Hydro]

I think you are forgetting a large-scale effort at a strategy oriented TB game with good graphics: Moo3. This was, perhaps, the last gasp of the TB gaming system and, by most accounts, it bombed with both strategy types who were infuriated with the needless complexity and AI idiocy, and mouth breather RT gamers who simply couldn’t comprehend.

Developers got a clear message, however: invest money in deep strategy games and you will lose your shirt.

So, enjoy SMAX. I just hope it works on Microsoft’s next operating system. If not, I’ll keep my (by then) old and creaky PC.

Hydro

P.S. – I tried and disliked GalCiv, but do like Moo3. I also appreciate and occasionally wade back into BotF and SEIV. Never tried or have any inclination to try Civ3.

[Barinthus]

Plenty of TBS games have that feature. Star Wars: Rebellion comes to mind. I'm all for it as long they have make it toggleable so players can choose whether they prefer to manage battles themselves or let the computer resolve the outcome.

[livid imp]

Sorry Hydro, I just can't be so fatalistic about it. I am just old enough to remember when making video games was up there with being a stand up comedian. Nobody did it cause they thought they'd get rich. They did it cause they loved it. There might not be a another Mega-Corp Productions release of a TBS, but somebody will make one. Maybe even eventually the folks here at Poly will get tired waiting and build there own. The big money corporations abandoning TBSs could be the best thing to happen to the genre. It might foster more creativity than was possible with big money breathing on your shoulder

[Kassiopeia]

I think the Total War series are doing just what you've been describing here, livid imp. You get to play a campaign on a grand continental scale (like in Rome: Total War, most of Europe and ME) in a turn based mode where you develop cities and train and move armies and navies, and when armies encounter you are taken to a real-time tactical view where you have to use your tactical skills to win the battle.

[livid imp]

I've seen games that include tactical elements added into combat screens in other games (HoMM, AoW, etc.). There is even a FPS/RTS hybrid game out there. What I would like to see is full on First Person Shooter mode for combat in a TBS game. Of course that wouldn't work for say PBEM games, but as I said before there should always be an option to turn it off, or even turn combat into a TBS tactical mode instead.

It is high time TBSs took a major leap forward, it is the only genre that hasn't changed all that much in the last 10+ years. Because unlike other genres, it has had to just to survive. Well time has come and as it has been mentioned before, no major company will touch a deep TBS anymore. But if a company generated enough buzz around a new concept in gaming, even the mouth-breathers ($$$) would pop their heads in to see what is going on.

[Darsnan]

The better elements of Deadlock

Originally posted by Kassiopeia
I think the Total War series are doing just what you've been describing here, livid imp. You get to play a campaign on a grand continental scale (like in Rome: Total War, most of Europe and ME) in a turn based mode where you develop cities and train and move armies and navies, and when armies encounter you are taken to a real-time tactical view where you have to use your tactical skills to win the battle.

Heah Kassiopeia
Is there a game of this nature set to a sci-fi theme? If so I'd be interested in it.
I remember playing (and really enjoying) the game called Deadlock. The element of exploring a planet, cultivating it within the theme of the various Factions offered, and strategically developping my Faction in reflection to the computer generated map was always enjoyable and strategically stimulating. The one element of this game I really miss is when attacking cities. My aircraft would take out the second echelon units, allowing my infantry to attack frontline units without their being able to rely on any direct support. My Infantry could then very easily penetrate the inner sanctums of the targeted cities. The really enjoyable aspect of this was watching my planned attack develop before my eyes as my units moved to their pre-determined objectives through the graphically displayed city. Much different from SMAC(X) where you simply choose units to sequentially attack a city until it falls....


D

[SynthetGod8]

MOO3 has been mentioned, but it's still a galactic civ builder game. And the tactics involved in the real-time combat and especially in the ground combat are sorely lacking. Sure, it was mildly fun to but my fleets on auto and watch them launch all those delightful missles. But to play on my own... a bore. But this isn't a review for MOO3. It had ground combat half-right. You have many plans of attack, variable combat theaters, options for various special weapons platforms, level of fighting, and so on. But what good was it? Just pick one and go. It never seemed to make a difference, except in the radio chatter, which was neat. I would have given anything to actually watch the battle, if I couldn't actually participate. But since the game is so huge as it is, spending the time to oversee even half the space and ground battles (if both combats were actually fun to play and required human input to be really effective) in the average turn would have been overwhelming.

It's the same with Total War. I almost never bother with the tactical battles. They take too long. Sure, I might lose less men, but I might also get my ass handed to me. Who's to say whose fault it was? My bad tactics, or lack of good units? I let the computer decide. Well, I do love to play a good gate-smashing.

Play the important battles. The capitol city of your feared enemy, the defence of your major city, the battle with the Guardian or whatever.

But if I could add one thing to MOO3, it would be a really good 3D rendering system and a complex combat generator. So when you're in ground combat, you pick the options, listen to how the battle goes, then watch the final battle for the capitol city of the planet or of that region (if there aren't enough units to capture the whole planet at once) which one would expect would be the hardest fight of all. Attack plans would mean something and as the commander, you would launch the various aspects of the assault. Air bombardments, objective captures, special weapon launches (nukes, etc), orbital bombardments, advances and retreats. You could pause and take on any view. Race would matter. Yes... in a perfect world, this would be a game unto itself and it would be a unique and powerful battle no matter what.

[quantum_mechani]

Originally posted by Ouro_827
I'd just like to see a decent TBS out there, released within the past..... five years.

There has been a lot of talk about developers not making complex TBS games anymore, and graphics being everything in all modern games. Indeed, not long ago I thought the era for pure, deep TBS games to be made had long past- before I tried Dominions II .

Much to my amazment, I finally found a game that surpassed SMAC which has held my number one spot since I started playing it. The learning curve is steep, but, much like SMAC, a very good game waits at the top.

[livid imp]

Originally posted by quantum_mechani
Indeed, not long ago I thought the era for pure, deep TBS games to be made had long past- before I tried Dominions II

Looks interesting. I am defiinately going to get it a try. Though it looks like a more in depth Age of Wonders, rather than a SMAC/Civ clone.

[quantum_mechani]

Originally posted by livid imp


Looks interesting. I am defiinately going to get it a try. Though it looks like a more in depth Age of Wonders, rather than a SMAC/Civ clone.

Age of Wonders and Dominions do not have a lot in common, something like comparing Rome: Total War with civ II. In both civ and R:TW you have units you move and cities you manage, but the emphasis and setting is much different.

Dominions is not much like SMAC either, other than being turn based, and a great game .

[Straybow]

I can live with less than stellar graphics, but SMAC was way behind the curve when it was released. This was by a company with a creative force that almost single handedly created the genre. Had any other company come out with the game, they would have been torn apart by reviewers and the buying public alike. Make no mistake, SMAC is a great game, but I feel that it suffered from the passable graphics.

Don't forget that was partly the result of a design choice they made. The alien planet is blah colored. There is no reason why the same level of graphics couldn't have resulted in a much more eye-pleasing game.

For me the unit graphics are somewhat of a waste. Who cares if the fighters "follow the terrain" as they move from tile to tile? If they'd used the 3d modeling to make units that were actually animated (as CtP2 did, but better).