Comparison of Beelines: Police State vs Free Market

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
Building crawlers when you have just 3 formers out is premature.

I don't necessarily agree unless you are referring to building of masses of crawlers. if you have any rainy tiles at all, a crawler can be a good early investment to speed base growth to get the next CP out.

Other than that I agree with your comments and find them applicable to any faction that can go planned. Morgan cannot.

My greatest dilike of a PS beeline remains the fact that you are YEARS and YEARS from crawlers.

Personally I will go directly to IA with a side trip only to centauri ecology ( its usual but if I have exceptionally good terrain I may delay this as well). Biogenetics can wait IMHO-- I want to be rushing rec tanks for 10% less minerals after all.

[mmontgomery]

I don't think delaying Recycling Tanks until after Planned is a good idea. The amount of resources you get from the first two bases for that length of time more than make up for the extra 4 minerals need to rush the Recycling Tanks before planned.

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
Colony pods cost 3 rows
Police cost 1 row, and take up support
Crawlers cost 3 rows

Colony pods are only effectively 2 rows, since they provide a free row unless your support is too low. The point is you can get a colony pod and police for the cost of one crawler due to the free minerals from the CP.

Regarding Police vs Planned, most of the time you don't even get to pick which one, since Planned is on the IA beeline, and Police is not.

The question is whether to delay the IA beeline to do the D:L beeline first. I was going by strategy guides which said to use FM/Wealth, so I was comparing this to PS. I could be that Planned/Wealth is better than either FM/Wealth or PS for the early game. I would have to do another experiment from the beginning to see.

After 2150, when dealing with mind worms, either have two defenders, or have a sensor net up. Assuming equal morale, a mind worm attacking a unit in a base near a sensor will lose more often than it will win.

Great suggestion. So clearly Formers need to be a priority before then, even if forests are not critical, the sensors are.

I'd be happy to show you what Morgan on FM can do early on.

Do you think you would use Free Market/Wealth, or would you use Planned/Wealth? Why don't you email me at mamontgoDONTYOUJUSTHATESPAM@earthlink.net. (Obviously omit the letters in caps.) I'll email you a save with the starting position and see how you play it for 40 turns.

[Zeiter]

Hmmm, a PS beeline...I like this new approach to the early game. It's about time that someone tried something different than the stereotypical beeline to IA.

And I could definitely see the benefit of going to PS early as Santiago. In that case, because of the +3 police, a scout essentially does the same thing as a rec commons, except you don't pay maintenance for it and it's likely that you won't be spending any minerals for support on it either with the +2 support rating.

As much as I like the early Morgan FM/wealth/crawler strategy, I have to admit that it is somewhat at the mercy of directed research and not getting placed near an agressive neighbor. If you try the same test with blind research, you'll notice that getting that straight beeline to IA is doubtful.

I think a fact that many are ignoring is the potential for finding AAs while running FM/wealth. The extra exploring under PS allows many more goodies from pod pops, such as ECs, facs completions, commlinks, AAs, etc. There's also a better chance of meeting a neighbor earlier and entering into a tech trading relationship, partly because the number of military units you'll have under PS will discourage a belligerent from messing with you just then. I'd say these goodies could almost compensate for the lack of funds for rush buying and the slower tech research. It just depends on how well you play it.

Notice that 3 AAs were found under the test with PS, and none were found under the test with FM/wealth. With 3 AAs, the faciton running PS could easily snag the HGP and easily throw a big monkey wrench into the FM/wealth player's plans.

[mmontgomery]

Originally posted by Zeiter
As much as I like the early Morgan FM/wealth/crawler strategy, I have to admit that it is somewhat at the mercy of directed research and not getting placed near an agressive neighbor. If you try the same test with blind research, you'll notice that getting that straight beeline to IA is doubtful.

... There's also a better chance of meeting a neighbor earlier and entering into a tech trading relationship, partly because the number of military units you'll have under PS will discourage a belligerent from messing with you just then.

You must be psychic! You called it perfectly. I played another 20 turns with PS and FM, and Sister Miriiam came down from the NorthEast. With FM, I had to give up two techs immediately, and that was just to get a truce. Miriam would not accept a treaty. With PS, Miriam was positively cordial. We traded two techs (I was already researching IA, so the trades were welcome), and Miriam offered a treaty right off.

With PS, University and Morgan became pact brothers on turn 32. With FM, there was just a truce with Universiity, and that truce cost two techs.

So from my experiment, your comments are right on the money!

[Chaos Theory]

Well, with Morgan I'd be unable to use Planned, so I'd go Free Market/Wealth.

As far as diplomacy, I have noticed that AIs are nicer to those with large armies, but I tend to swat the AI anyway, no matter what I give it early on for peace. I am willing to give the AI just about anything that doesn't cost me (that is, tech trades and possibly vendetta against a common foe) to get what I want from it (in single player only, against other people I wouldn't want to expose my tech so much).

As far as a new approach to the early game, that would be welcome, but I don't think PS will turn out to be superior.

As far as blind research, you get what you get and you make the best. You can't beeline at all, but if you can get into Free Market, the rest of the techs come faster.

Rather than the AA count, I'd be interested in how many pods were popped in FM vs PS. That would give a less random assessment of how many AAs you might expect.

[Sikander]

Techs: Go for formers first, then beeline to IA. Use the formers to build roads between bases and forests, except where a particular base won't have a 2 nutrient tile, in which case build one for it. I would space my bases 3 apart (two intervening tiles) maximally for turn advantage. You will find that you just don't need all those tiles, it will be better to have more bases sooner.

I usually wait until I get IA before I go FM, and go with Wealth and then FM when I have the money. This makes things a little easier to manage IMO, but either way is doable.

Rely on probes for defense. Probes come fairly early on your beeling to IA, and when you are running wealth they will have better morale than your military units. There are basically 3 types of probe units in the early game.

1) Probe Team - the standard team on a rover chassis. Use these for mobile defense against AI incursions, exploration of clear terrain and offense against the AI.

2) Armored Probe Team - a probe team on an infantry chassis with armor. These will defend better than the same type of armor on a miltary unit under wealth, and don't cost any support. They cost as much as standard probe teams.

3) Probe Garrison - these are unarmored probe teams on an infantry chassis. They are mainly used to defend your bases from enemy probes, but can be used to preempt enemy attacks by buying off enemy units adjacent to your base, or even a tile or two away if you have the road network in place. They are cheaper than standard probes, and like all probes cost no support.

In you game if I were running FM and had Wealth / Crawlers already and Zac came around I'd be happy because I'd have a prime opportunity to get some free techs and cheap units off of old probe weak Zac. You should have plenty of cash for this. Just subvert the units he send to threaten you and send them (with a few probes) back the way they came. You might have to halt at your borders due to your negative police rating, at which point you have a few options:

1) Switch out of FM and go for the gusto. Probe Zac for his techs, and then his bases. Buy the units he sends against you, or use previously purchased units to kill them. He will be the one who is begging for blood truce once you take a couple of bases from him.

2) Hold at your border, preferably at a point which gives you a nice advantage. Build sensors there to keep yourself ahead of the information game (and give your units a combat advantage. Buy his units or destroy them as you see fit.

3) Build toward Zac, thus extending your border toward him while otherwise expending little effort aside from your own previously laid plans to grow. He'll get weaker as he sends units into certain death, and you'll only be slightly inconvenienced by the relatively small amount of energy you need to hold him off. Once you feel that you are in a good position, go over to the offensive. Switch out of FM for a little while and smash him with your crawler boosted production. (Crawlers on forests crawling minerals, repeat until every base has 15 minerals. Take time to smell the early game SPs if you wish, especially HGP, WP and VW.)

The goal here is to turn Zac into your tech slave. Once he surrenders, give him back his bases so that he can better help you with your research, while you expand in another direction.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by mmontgomery
I don't think delaying Recycling Tanks until after Planned is a good idea. The amount of resources you get from the first two bases for that length of time more than make up for the extra 4 minerals need to rush the Recycling Tanks before planned.

First of all MORGAN CAN'T GO PLANNED. I was talking about delaying getting biogenetics until after I have IA . .. the true comparison then isn't the minerals ( I meant to put a smily in that last line about the 10% reduction). I will rush rec tanks whenever I have the opportunity. So the comparison isn't the resources you get from the rec tanks versus the 4 minerals you save by waiting . . The true comparison would be:

The benefits of getting rec tanks and beginning rushing them at x date with a resulting delay in IA versus the benefits of an earlier wealth and crawlers. Its more math than I care to do since we would have to assume every aspect of the game BUt I can say this:

Going wealth costs 40 ec--ONE rec tanks will cost more than that alone

If we assume 6 bases:

you rush or build 6 rec tanks

My wealth setting will add enough energy to equate to the energy effect of your rec tanks

I rush or build 6 crawlers and have all of them crawl food or minerals-- either rainy or forested squares will lead to greater additions to resources than the rec tanks in that resource category

Plus the crawlers cost 27 minerals compared to 40 for a rec tanks. Even if we assume 3 minerals for additional support ( and thats not really appropriate here since we are comparing FM styles,) you have 60 ( 40 if you subtract off the cost of going wealth) additional minerals for other builds.


The pros and cons of this style

Pro- greater flexibility and ability to switch resources crawled and even which bases they are crawled to

Con- You need some available terrain to make this work and your production is more vulnerable

Neutral- more units gives more warning of attack but the units are vulnerable, although they can be armored for defense in place and can serve as support free defensive troops

Pro-- huge commerce income if you can make friends


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I don't always advocate IA before biogen but there are times when I do and it can work well. To brush it off because the resources from an early rec tanks are nice while true, is irrelevant. Going to biogen for tanks can delay IA by 10+ . That is significant. As I say, I do not claim it is the wrong way to go but I WOULD claim that going for IA ASAP is just as viable

[AndiD]

Originally posted by mmontgomery

I played another 20 turns with PS and FM, and Sister Miriiam came down from the NorthEast. With FM, I had to give up two techs immediately, and that was just to get a truce. Miriam would not accept a treaty. With PS, Miriam was positively cordial. We traded two techs (I was already researching IA, so the trades were welcome), and Miriam offered a treaty right off.

With PS, University and Morgan became pact brothers on turn 32. With FM, there was just a truce with Universiity, and that truce cost two techs!

What map size were you playing at? The PS approach might be something for smaller maps but will certainly lose out on larger maps since the badguys won't come calling that early. A few 0-2-1 probes against worms and infiltration, that's all you need then.

On a IA-Biogen beeline you don't WANT to trade tech before you get IA and after that only Biogen or Flex. To meet a faction at that time is nice, sure, but for only for a Treaty and commerce income (especially Morgan).

When you go out exploring with probe foils while you have HGP and maybe PTS you would be surprised how friendly all the people out there are to you since with two SPs, lots of tech and maybe lots of population you look strong on the power graph.

Tech trade there is welcome since you usually have more options to choose from than you like to and commerce is more important since you have bigger bases (= more income).

Once I have been for ~15 years in Dem/FM/Wealth and both Dee and Miri _wanted_ a Treaty when I met them first and that was with intense rivalry on! Miri wanted to trade ApplPhys in exchange for Gene Splicing beforehand. Dee wanted nothing. They were noncommital on first meeting but went seething quickly.

[mmontgomery]

I did my experiments on the standard map of Planet.

As for Rec Tanks first or after IA, rather than doing the math, I suggest just starting a game, save the starting postion, and playing it both ways, and seeing which start you like, just like I did with PS vs FM. This should give a pretty good indicator whether Morgan should research Biogen first or not.

I did not count the number of pods popped for each, but that would not be hard to do. When I get some time, I will check that. Also, with PS, I found the crashed Unity site, getting the location of all factions, mining laser, and copter. With FM, University found it first.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by mmontgomery
I did my experiments on the standard map of Planet.

As for Rec Tanks first or after IA, rather than doing the math, I suggest just starting a game, save the starting postion, and playing it both ways, and seeing which start you like, just like I did with PS vs FM. This should give a pretty good indicator whether Morgan should research Biogen first or not.

That would give the answer for THAT MAP only. I think too many people get too rigid in their thinking. For instance , if I am cramped and have crappy arid land, I'll want the rec tanks . . . if I have a larger land area and have some rainy tiles, or accessible specials or even a decent size river, I might forgo the rec tanks for a while in favor of quicker crawlers and wealth.

As I pointed out, the combo of wealth and a crawler can add up to 3 extra resources. The downside is that needing IA, it takes a while to get started on this. But then again there are other tradeoffs if you go biogenetics as your earliest tech in that you delay FM or getting the ability to build NNs or the ability to build probes.

To me this game is all about tradeoffs-- while I advocate an early FM and IA beeline, I have played situations where another route made sense. I have problems fully embracing an early PS for morgan though since my playstyle against an AI would be to use my extra energy to probe away units. Also large numbers of undeveloped bases mean losing one is not really a crippling blow.

[Natalinasmpf]

Police cost 1 row, and take up support

Then you get clean police, with police state + ascetic virtues.

Make police + upgrade to clean.

[Chaos Theory]

Clean police are certainly nice, but by then you can be running all specialists, and not need drone control at all. As a result, I only end up using clean police with factions who have Police >= -1 in their midgame builder SE settings - Yang and Deirdre for sure, and sometimes someone else.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
Clean police are certainly nice, but by then you can be running all specialists, and not need drone control at all. As a result, I only end up using clean police with factions who have Police >= -1 in their midgame builder SE settings - Yang and Deirdre for sure, and sometimes someone else.

I was a little suprised you listed Yang as a clean police option--hmm-- I usually find support is so good for yang since you are running PS almost all the time, that its rare that I need to "clean' up many units. Some perhaps but its usually not a big deal ( its a cheap upgrade IIRC anyway).

[Chaos Theory]

Consider all the units you might make clean. Police (1p-1-1) are the single best option, as they are likely to live a long time, and only gain 1 row from becoming clean. Though Yang has good support (4/city), if you spend 2 on police, you only have 2 units left over. These must cover formers and military, before you start losing precious minerals (precious because of +3 industry). I find myself making more than 2 formers/city quite easily, and can hit 10+ in some cities. I view a mineral bonus on a rocky as 7 more formers.

When I can get clean police (which takes a while), I'm happy to be able to free up support slots for just 20 ECs apiece. This happens wholesale when I get Fusion Power and start raking in the energy. Later, I can clean up the formers, hopefully making them super at the same time, and for something like 40 ECs free up a support slot and effectively get another former.

[mmontgomery]

A lot of these suggestions are interesting (sending out probe foils, buying attacking University units with probes, probing University for tech, etc.) but all of these seem to be suggestions for a bit later in the game. I don't see this coming into play by turn 40, and probably not by turn 60. Also, probes are fine for dealing with University, but it costs 4x as much to deal with the Believers using probes, so this does not seem to be an ideal answer for Miriam coming in from the NE.

But really, what I am trying to get a handle on is exactly when do people think they should stop initial base expansion, switch some priority to terraforming/crawlers, defenses, etc.

One person suggested FM/Wealth forgetting about defense altogether at first, and forget about drones, just expand madly with CPs and rec tanks. So what if you have to make your first citizen a doctor. I went back and tried this strategy, and it was not half bad! I played 60 turns, and lost 3 bases and one CP to mind worms. At turn 40, I had 8 cities, 4 of which could only work their base square. (This was comparable to PS, except PS cities were working 3 squares each; but FM had a tech advantage.) By turn 60, even losing 4 prospective bases, I had 13 bases, each producing 1/2/7 resources. With this method of play, one started building formers and crawlers when cities were not able to directly make another CP, but had to wait for growth. Essentially, each city could make another CP at most once every 20 turns.

I have to say I was very uncomfortable having all of these vacant cities, but giving away the demanded techs seems to placate both University and the Believers.

But realistically, do most people stop at 6 bases at first (to avoid extra drones), and begin producing formers and crawlers once the CP for the 6th base is being produced, or do you build formers earlier, or do you continue building CPs past 6 before formers, or what? With my PS trial I was continuing to build CPs with my frontier cities, while my interioir citiies shifted to formers and a SP.

I would love to see more people apply their pet starting strategy to this starting position. So far only one person has requested the save. I would be happy to see the results of other people's strategies.