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**Blake** · August 16, 2004, 07:30

I'm afraid it comes down to one simple concept:
Crawlers.

Free market is on the path to crawlers, police aint.

I do like Police/Free market, it's a fun combo because you can support hordes of crawlers... but I rarely bother with getting Police first, unless i trade it from yang or it's blind research, or some odd pod luck (like getting all the pre-req)

**Chaos Theory** · August 16, 2004, 07:59

To run FM, you need to learn how to avoid provoking worms, and how to tackle them when you do.

Before 2150, native worms that attack bases do so at a severe penalty. Before 2115, native worms anywhere suffer large penalties. So, after 2115, stop popping pods recklessly and stop tromping through fungus.

Noncombat units defend as well as combat units when in bases, against native worms. If an undefended base finds itself next to a mind worm, if it has a former nearby, you can move the former into the base as defense, and likely win.

FM will suffer when confronted with early aggression. In that case, run planned instead. Compare planned and police, two SEs with the same penalty. Which would you rather have, +2 support and +2 police, which require quite a few of your minerals to take advantage of, or +1 industry and +2 growth, which makes your minerals stretch further, and gives you more workers?

Rec commons are actually a really good deal. Spend 4 mineral rows, and 1 EC/turn, to quell 2 drones. Try doing the same with police (if you can use that many police), and it costs you 2 minerals/turn. If you're still below your support limit, you lose potential formers or offensive military, so they still cost you effectively 2 minerals/turn.

**-SafaN-** · August 16, 2004, 08:24

Re: Comparison of Beelines: Police State vs Free Market

Originally posted by mmontgomery

Anyway, I decided to run a test for 40 turns with each. So I started a game with Morgan, and beginning with the exact same starting position, I tried both paths. I pick Morgan since I figured he would be strongest with the Free Market/Wealth beeline, and wanted to make sure I was giving Free Market a fair shake. I also build very few defenders at first with free market, to minimize the support problems, again to try to give Free Market a fair chance. This lack of defenders made me very nervous, but I did not want to handicap Free Market with the support for more defenders at first.

defence problems are solved with synthmethal probes (0-2-1) no support and works against single attacking units
mostly starting with 3 scouts (1 free and 2 directly after base founding) 2 of them then cashing after light exploration

My biggest problem with the Free Market path turned out to be mind worms. Normally, the early mind worms are no problem, because they are just hatchlings. I experienced several occasions during the first 40 turns with Free Market/Wealth, where mind worms attacked. With the first base, I had a defender already in it, so I first tried attacking with my defender as I usually do, but instead of having the typical 3-2 odds (which nearly always win), my attack strength was only 1.57 against a defense strength of 1.75, and I lost. I tried 5 replays of this battle before the mind worm lost, so I don't think losing was a fluke. I also tried a strategy when I sat tight. Oddly enough, I usually won on defense, partially because of the 25% base bonus, but mainly because the mind worm attack strength was inexplicably only 1.12. [I wonder is this is a bug, since the mind worm showed a PSI of 3, and a -25% hatchling penalty. On open ground, these mind worms attack at a power of 2.25.] Anyway, when I replayed and sat tight (instead of attacking), I won. On the second attack, I had not yet built a defender. (Against, I was trying to minimize support costs.) Luckily, the base was size 2, so instead of losing the whole base, I lost 1 (worthless) population, and a valuable recycling tank. I went back to an earlier save, and this time built a defender right after my recycling tank.

Thats right: don't think about attacking mindworms as morgan without empath.
avoid popping unsafe pods, avoid entering fungus with any unit beside a former to clean it up. Then u should have less mindworms and better play.
defender (probe style) are only needed in outer citys, be sure to have a probe defence in all sea citys
if u can trade for SothB, it will be a huge help for trance

On open ground, encountering a mind worm was always a losing situation. If I attacked, I lost. If I tried to run away, the mind worm caught up and killed the unit easily. In one case, I was escorting a colony pod. I decided in this case to save and reload until I won the attack, which took about 5 tries. In short, if I had not reloaded at all, Free Market would not have fared nearly as well as shown, since I would have lost 2 recyling tanks, 1 colony pod, and 3 scouts to mind worms. As it was, I reloaded to avoid any loses, and even gained some energy gains from the kills, which realistically, I had very little chance of winning those battles. I found the need to reload rather frustrating, since I normally play iron man, but I was making saves nearly every turn to document this experiment, and I wanted to do everything possible not to bias against Free Market.

thats right, thats the essence of free market: it is isolationistic with little exploring and little defence in trade for cash and tech. Turn advantage u know

My other problem was that University was nearby. With my Free Market experiment, when I encountered University, I only had a total of two scouts. I gave up two techs to get a blood truce with University. They would not offer a treaty, nor would they trade or sell any tech. With Police, they demanded 50 energy credits. (I thought this was odd; that University always preferred tech, but maybe I did not have anything they wanted.) I refused, and they declared a Vendetta. I was not too worried. I killed the 2-1-2 rover that found my scout; by this time, my scout had gained 3 levels of morale due to worms and monolith, so this was not a surprising outcome. (It first retreated with 50% damage to my 10%, then I pinned it in with my ZOC and finished it off.) I wiped out two University probes heading my way, and one colony pod. By turn 33, I had a dozen scouts built, many of which had decent morale, and University offered to end the Vendetta, and even gave a treaty of friendship. They still would not trade or sell any tech, nor would they accept a pact. Anyway, I was much happier with my Police results, since I cost University 110 minerals worth of units, did not lose a thing, and did not give up any tech.

With one of the probe defences u can buy the rover, then use it to destroy all they throw to you.
After a while they will beg for peace

After IA u have two choices: live in peace or live alone: send some probes for their techs, try to get 4-1-2's and pound on them until they are submissive: with 2 good techers its easy game now. U can try to ignore them but it will be war sometimes, just be prepared.

I am currently moving a colony pod to outflank University and cut off their avenue of expansion. (With Free Market, I have 2 fewer bases [soon to be 3], and cannot cut off the University expansion to the north.)

there is no reason why u should have lesser cps: growth is as quick and u have cash to complete pod when growth has occured

With the Free Market position, have been unused to moving to Free Market so early, I am not sure where to go from here. For example, when do I continue expanding? Do I go for the Human Genome SP first? Do I keep my bases stagnant at size two and just rely on supply crawlers, or do I build rec centers so that I can work more land? Once I get Police State, I intend to build a lot more formers, but should I build more before then, since I will pay 1 mineral support for every one I build? Of course, my crawlers would be a lot more effective if I had more forest to work.

free market is beelining to IA, then building HGP And PTS
= size 3 bases, with a talent and a drone expelled by PTS. U don't need rec commons yet. Before these projects u need 1 former/city after u can build 2.
build prototypes with crawlers, build projects with crawlers: use cash to upgrade them.
Try stagnating the bases at 3.
children chreches are crucial for morgan, wil help with the moral problems.

Greetz, SafaN

**Natalinasmpf** · August 16, 2004, 08:43

Thats right: don't think about attacking mindworms as morgan without empath.

You assume that Morgan always uses Free Market.

**Flubber** · August 16, 2004, 09:15

hmmmm--

what can I say . .. its a decent analysis but there doesn't seem to be any consideration of

1. the early use of crawlers-- These are obviously available since youmentioned FM/wealth
2. actually switching SE chouices back and forth-- I believe in FM but may spend a bit of time in other choices depending on the circumstances

3. The time value of tech-- The FM players gets tech earlier than the PS player and this has value

To me PS is like an addictive drug-- once you are relying on it for drone contol, its hard to get off. For me FM with Morgan means you probably rush a crawler to crawl minerals and "solve" the support problem. Other than that you work hard to get the HGP and PTS and "grow" horizontally. Why you would have fewer bases using FM baffles me since rushing CPs as soon as the base is ready to grow is the idea.

Bureacracy limits-- who cares?-- so the first citizen is a drone . .. So what?-- make him a doctor .. . the base won't starve working only the base tile and you get the benefit of another 7 or 8 energy. The bottom line to a possible drone problem is build another base.

**Ka Plewy** · August 16, 2004, 10:51

I'm not suprised you did poorly, because you executed half the strategy, maybe 1/3. The key is getting to IA to so you can get to crawlers, AND run Wealth. I see no mention of Wealth or Crawlers. Up until you get to crawlers, you should be pumping out CP's until you've filled your continent. Also, at some point before IA you should be making formers and and spamming forests like their is no tomorrow. I've almost never been able to get to IA without picking a tech off the beeline, and my tech of choice is Centauri Ecology, unless I have had to pick it first. Forests do two great things, they expand on their own, and they can remove fungus from non rocky squares in the process. This helps you as it makes it more difficult for mind worms to get close to your cities.

If you implement a complete strategy coordinating forestation, expansion, and use of crawlers, there is little reason for you to fail. With these combinations, your cities will begin to produce regardless of the number of workers you have, simply because of all the crawlers sending in minerals.

Good luck!

**Flubber** · August 16, 2004, 11:57

well stated ka plewy !

The tester tried to test and compare a FM strategy without doing what a Free Marketeer might be doing

**Chaos Theory** · August 16, 2004, 12:00

To be fair, he said he was running FM/Wealth, which was also demonstrated by his attackers having strength 1.57 against worms.

**Flubber** · August 16, 2004, 12:13

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
To be fair, he said he was running FM/Wealth, which was also demonstrated by his attackers having strength 1.57 against worms.

True

But a key to the morgan FM/wealth strat is to build bases-- there should be no reason to have less bases than under his PS style-- in fact extra energy should allow rushing faster. At the very least, getting to crawlers faster and using them faster should negate some of the support issues

I also don't think the tester realized how weak the early worms are when they attack you and that the FM player is no worse defending against native attack than anyone else--

**Ka Plewy** · August 16, 2004, 12:26

My mistake. mmontgomery emphasized Free Market so much I missed the Wealth. Thanks Flubber for backing me up.

**Flubber** · August 16, 2004, 12:41

Originally posted by Ka Plewy
My mistake. mmontgomery emphasized Free Market so much I missed the Wealth. Thanks Flubber for backing me up.

ya I saw he was runnign FM/wealth but a key to me in the PS strategy is when he gets to IA. Going off the IA beeline can add significant years, not to mention the extra years for each and every tech due to producing less labs.

Perhaps I overemphasize crawlers but once I get them, I am building a lot of them for a while

**mmontgomery** · August 16, 2004, 13:05

Originally posted by Ka Plewy
I'm not suprised you did poorly, because you executed half the strategy, maybe 1/3. The key is getting to IA to so you can get to crawlers, AND run Wealth. I see no mention of Wealth or Crawlers. Up until you get to crawlers, you should be pumping out CP's until you've filled your continent. Also, at some point before IA you should be making formers and and spamming forests like their is no tomorrow.

I actually don't think I did poorly with FM. I just don't see it clobbering PS. To be clear, I Beelined IA, researching only Biogenetics (for recycling tanks), and CE, for formers, and completed IA on turn 33. I started pumping out crawlers as soon as I could build them, so I can't say that I neglected the crawler part of the strategy. But I am not sure that was the best idea, because I probably needed more formers first (I only had 3 formers at this point), and the crawlers actually had nothing better than 1 mineral to work (the cities were working the forests built up to that point). But in fact making more cities might have been a better choice than either more formers or crawlers.

As for the mind worms, with my FM experiment, I only caused one mind worm "tromping" through fungus. I got lucky and did not get any mind worms from pods. The other mind worms just showed up.

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
Before 2150, native worms that attack bases do so at a severe penalty. Before 2115, native worms anywhere suffer large penalties.

This is great information! I was wondering why the mind worm attack rating against the base was cut in half. So I don't have to worry so much about mind worm attacks against bases in the first 50 turns. But what do you do about mind worm attacks against bases after turn 50? It is clear that the mind worms should normally win after this penalty is removed, even with the defender getting a 25% base bonus.

There was the suggestion to switch to planned in an aggressive situation (i.e. my University problem). I am not sure than planned stacks up well against PS. With PS, if I use the full support capability (which I usually do), then each base effectively gains +2 minerals. Planned only results in effectively 10% more minerals. If I am generating 5 minerals per turn, this is effectively only 0.5 extra minerals per turn from planned, verses 2 minerals from PS. And the growth bonus from planned does me no good at this stage of the game, and could even hurt, by expanding my bases more quickly than the drones can be controlled.

But still, the key question for these 40 turns is priority of building. Now it is fine to say pump out CPs, and formers, and crawlers, and synthmetal probes, but there are only so many resources, so one has to prioritize. There were many good suggestions here, such as building synthmetal probes as clean defenders, but these cost 30 minerals. Still, this is definitely a better long term than building the scouts as defenders, which effectively cost me 1 mineral per turn, and are worse defenders. I guess I could produce more colony pods, realizing that each new base will trigger a random drone. So I will have to starve the affected base back to size one, or research social psych to build a recreation commons. BTW, I agree that recreation commons is a better long term buy than two police, but it requires more resources up front. I can build a new colony pod AND two police for the same cost as a recreation commons.

So let's think about where the priorities should have been different. I probably built 3 scouts more than I should have (recapture 30 minerals). Those should have been replaced by synthmethal probes, or perhaps I should have left some bases undefended. This is a tough call, since every single base was next to at least one square of fungus. Say leave the bases undefended, and build another former with those resources. Still, this does not substantially change the picture.

Should I have built more bases instead of the formers and crawlers? If so, for each new base I place, one of my current bases stops working a forest and starts starving. I had not built a single probe and had not infiltrated yet. Should I have built an aggressive probe team instead of a former or crawler?

I would be happy to zip up the saves and send to anyone who cares to look to see if there are specific things I should have done differently to give FM a better chance. But I think I played it pretty close to optimal.

Fundamentally, the reason I think PS does better in the early game has to do with having the ability to expand more freely. Assuming two scouts in each base acting as police, each city can stabilize at size 2, work 3 squares, and support 1 extra unit [2 for non-Morgan] (beyond their own police). In the early game, consider that a new colony with one police costs the same as a crawler. The crawler generates two minerals. The new city generates 3 minerals (before recycling tanks). The new city provides one more support, for an extra former. The new city can build one more police, and generate another 2 minerals. The new city expands my territory, possibly blocking expansion by rival factions. Now FM can also expand cities, but the lack of police means that whichever city gets the random drone must stop working one square that it was working. The new city may not be able to work any squares but the base square. For this penalty, the new city gets +5 energy in the base square. But PS gets +2 energy from the two extra squares worked, so the net gain for FM is only +3. And once PS gets Wealth (which I think will happen around turn 60), the energy situation equalizes.

Anyway, these experiments and the subsequent analysis indicate to me that an early beeline to IA is inferior to a beeline to D:L, then IA. I would be glad to send all of the saves to anyone who wants them. Perhaps someone would care to take the starting position, and replay themselves to a better result. But please, no save/restore to get better pod results. The only save/restore I did in this was to try to figure out the best way to deal with mind worms for FM.

**Flubber** · August 16, 2004, 13:22

Originally posted by mmontgomery
There was the suggestion to switch to planned in an aggressive situation (i.e. my University problem). .

IIRC Morgan can't go planned so the suggestion is moot.

**Chaos Theory** · August 16, 2004, 13:23

Colony pods cost 3 rows

Police cost 1 row, and take up support

Crawlers cost 3 rows

Regarding Police vs Planned, most of the time you don't even get to pick which one, since Planned is on the IA beeline, and Police is not. But combine Planned with Wealth and it's even more powerful:

Going from 0 to +1 industry, you get 10/9 value ~= +11%
Going from +1 to +2 industry, you get 9/8 value = +12.5% minerals. In a base producing just 5 (which is pretty low), you effectively gain .625 minerals by going Planned. You can also rushbuy units more cheaply. This effect is exacerbated by +industry factions like the Hive or the Drones.

+3 to +4 industry: 7/6 ~= +16.7%

After 2150, when dealing with mind worms, either have two defenders, or have a sensor net up. Assuming equal morale, a mind worm attacking a unit in a base near a sensor will lose more often than it will win.

Building crawlers when you have just 3 formers out is premature.

I'd be happy to show you what Morgan on FM can do early on.

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Comparison of Beelines: Police State vs Free Market

Comparison of Beelines: Police State vs Free Market

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