Fungus/Worm Armageddeon

[Lord Nword]

I personally have never had an unending attack.

However, I have gottne to the point where I didn't get economic sanctions anymore.... somewhere around 6500 years of sanctions total, primarily from razing enemy bases if they didn't line up perfectly with my base
In that game, I have 3-10 squares of fungus growth every turn. But no mindworms, and only 1 square per base. I've also found that in this situation where my bases are all lined up perfectly(their resource squares don't overlap), only the bases that are on the border of my huge blob of bases are attacked by fungus...

And what do you mean by Clean Minerals???

[Chaos Theory]

Clean mineral count =
16 + fungal pops + #ecofacilities built - atrocities by you - 5*PBs used by anyone

Ecofacilities are: Tree Farm, Hybrid Forest, Centauri Preserve, Temple of Planet

Ecodamage ~= (mineral production + terraforming damage - clean mineral count) * modifiers

Terraforming damage:
+1 for most terraforming
-1 per forest
+5 per condensor
+7 per echelon mirror
+9 per borehole
*2 for tiles actually worked (IIRC)
*.5 with tree farm
*.5 with hybrid forest
*0 with both tree farm and hybrid forest

Therefore, if your clean mineral count is high, no ecodamage.

[Flubber]

I had a nerve gas and PB war in which I ended up losing a few bases to mindworms. They do keep coming for a while but eventually they stop-- perhaps because my minerals went back under the limits by raising my clean mineral count.

Defending against the swarms is really a losing battle so I can only recommend ONE trance resonance defender per base-- he resources for addtional ubits should be funnelled into 6r-empath rovers , SAM arty and the occasional empath chopper for killing strays and finsihing off the locusts. With a well sensored land, you should see all the worms and you always seems to get first crack.

Building defenders never made sense to me in a situation where one rover attack should kill the entire worm stack-- heck -- how many defenders would you need to contain stacks of 20 worms??

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Chaos Theory


Terraforming damage:
+1 for most terraforming
-1 per forest
+5 per condensor
+7 per echelon mirror
+9 per borehole
*2 for tiles actually worked (IIRC)
*.5 with tree farm
*.5 with hybrid forest
*0 with both tree farm and hybrid forest

Therefore, if your clean mineral count is high, no ecodamage.

I have seen thses lists before but isn't it simply the first formulas you posted that matter. If you stay beneath your clean mineral limit you won't have fungal pops period. ??

[Mr. Harley]

I read somewhere, I cannot remember the reference, that Nanoreplicators also count as an Ecofacility. The problem is that they increase the mineral production at the same time, so it's a mixed blessing. Still, they are superior to any other mineral +50% facility simply for that reason.

[Chaos Theory]

Flubber: what I listed is part of the SMAC/X help for Ecodamage (Advanced). It may not be correct, but I haven't seen anyone challenge it.

[Whoha]

Nano replicators are clean facilities to.

The description of eco damage is wierd in the advanced concepts though, it says that the % is:

(Minerals/1 + # of Preserves,temples,nanoreplicators ) *difficulty * technologies *(3-planet)*LIFE/300.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
Flubber: what I listed is part of the SMAC/X help for Ecodamage (Advanced). It may not be correct, but I haven't seen anyone challenge it.

I haven't specifically tested this but I don't think it is correct, despite it appearing in the help files. I think this for the following reasons

1. Ecodamage in a given base ALWAYS seems to correspond to mineral production and my clean mineral limit. Put simply, If I have a base showing an ecodamage chance number, this number reduces if I lessen the number of minerals that base produces. Lets say it produces 30 minerals, I will see the ecodamage number go down with EACH mineral taken out of production until lets say at 26 minerals, my ecodamage number is 0. I have just worked backwards to discover my current clean mineral limit. If I check several bases, they all seem to come back to the SAME limit, regardless of their facilities OR terraforming

2. The clean mineral limit seems to be global-- in that EVERY base seems to have the same clean mineral limit irrespective of terraforming-- more specifically, the base with all forests and a few mines will show ecodamage while the base with 8 condensors and an equal number of mines to the forested base, will not. Where does this terraforming damage concept come in?

3. I haven't tested the effect of treefarms but if you do nothing else on a turn that affects ecodamage other than build a single treefarm, you will see the chance of ecodamage go down in ALL your bases, since you just added one to your clean mineral limit ( assuming at least one prior fungal pop). It does appear to have a greater impact in the base where it is built and I can accept the idea that it reduces the chance of ecodamage in that base by more than would be attributable to the clean mineral limit change. Put another way, I think a treefarm will lessen the impact of any minerals in excess of the clean mineral limit


So in summary, I'm not saying for certain that the help file stuff about "terraforming ecodamage" is bullcrap, but that is the direction I am leaning. In my games, mineral production in an individual base and the clean mineral limit determines ecodamage. The more you exceed the clean mineral limit, the higher the chance of ecodamage. A base with 10 condensors seems to never have ecodamage unless it also has a lot of minerals while the minerals inherent in forested bases mean that many of them might have ecodamage.

So my experience does not go in accordance with those help files. But if anyone has the inclination, it might be worthwhile to test it themselves. I don't have the time ( I am behind in a bunch of PBEMs and while I can post from work, I can't play)

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Whoha
Nano replicators are clean facilities to.

The description of eco damage is wierd in the advanced concepts though, it says that the % is:

(Minerals/1 + # of Preserves,temples,nanoreplicators ) *difficulty * technologies *(3-planet)*LIFE/300.

THat formula seems odd and is probably somewhat incorrect.. Any formula that does not mention specifically that you start with x clean minerals and then it goes up by one for every fungal pop and ecofacility built ( note that TFs and HFs definitely are among the ecofacilities) is probably not completely right .

I'm not saying its all wrong either since I have never fully understood what determines the % chance of ecodamage once a base exceeds the clean mineral limit. Obviously each additional mineral increases the ecodamage chance but it seems that there are other modifiers working as well--- This is probably where planet rating, tech and the ecofacilities in the particular base come in.

[Chaos Theory]

The "minerals" in Whoha's formula refers to unclean minerals. Once you start getting ecodamage, that formula indicates how bad it is.

In cities with multiple boreholes, I've noticed I have significant ecodamage, even before reaching my normal clean minerals count. I have also seen an increase in ecodamage from merely building a borehole near a base. The borehole itself is worked by some other base.

That said, I don't believe the actual numbers (18 fewer clean minerals for a worked borehole?!), but it's an indication of what's going on.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Chaos Theory


In cities with multiple boreholes, I've noticed I have significant ecodamage, even before reaching my normal clean minerals count. I have also seen an increase in ecodamage from merely building a borehole near a base. The borehole itself is worked by some other base.

I have not experienced this since my experience has been in accord with the clear concept

Below clean mineral limit-- no ecodamage
Above -- some although I have never figured out how the % is calculated

I may have to test this out ( don't know WHEN I will get the chance). It definitely wouldn't be the first time one of my long held assumptions turns out to be incorrect.

[Natalinasmpf]

You are using needlejets? Why not choppers?

Also, you could try suicide bombing, does that work?

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Natalinasmpf
You are using needlejets? Why not choppers?

Also, you could try suicide bombing, does that work?

needlejets can be useful against worms to provide air cover to vulnerable units if the natives don't have anything that can take down a plane. In theory you could use a wall of needlejets to contain the worms while you focussed on killing all the locusts.

A comparison:

1. The damage taken in psi combat means that a chopper will generally fight only 1 or 2 battles a turn anyway so the multiple attack feature is lessened-- But if they can get back to base they will repair a turn quicker than the needlejet which takes 2 turns for a single attack and then needs the 3rd turn to repair.

2. The crashing feature of choppers impedes survivability if you can't get back to a base. Usually not a major problem when protecting the homeland

3. needles only advantage is aircover and immunity to ground attack

Self-destructing

Self-destructing works and is actually a reasonably decent tactic. For example attack and kill one key stack in the middle and then drop your damage rover in next to 3 or 4 huge stacks. Destruct and see them all take say 30 or 40% damage. It makes it so much easier for the next rover to take out stacks more easily.

I generally don't self-destruct all that much since artillery can give the damage needed for easy kills, but if arty isn't available (or damaged from previous duels with sporelaunchers), self-destructing can be ok. Its just beautiful if you can hurt a bunch of stacks

[Mr. Harley]

As a note I can verify that Nanoreplicators do reduce your eco-damage, and I suspect it is 1 more free mineral per facility built just like a Hybrid Forest if my memory serves me properly. I gather multi-player seldom gets that far.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by Flubber



THat formula seems odd and is probably somewhat incorrect.. Any formula that does not mention specifically that you start with x clean minerals and then it goes up by one for every fungal pop and ecofacility built ( note that TFs and HFs definitely are among the ecofacilities) is probably not completely right .

I'm not saying its all wrong either since I have never fully understood what determines the % chance of ecodamage once a base exceeds the clean mineral limit. Obviously each additional mineral increases the ecodamage chance but it seems that there are other modifiers working as well--- This is probably where planet rating, tech and the ecofacilities in the particular base come in.

clean minerals only apply to terraforming related damage according to the datalinks, which is wrong if CT is right which I think he is.